Tyson and Cus, Ali and Dundee

Ali has spoken on learning a lot from Dundee. He was more than a manager. I’d say Ali being literally the GOAT at heavyweight, his career turned out fine, lol.

That ego and arrogance was part of what made Ali and Foreman great. People have to be who they are, and when someone starts trying to change who they are … usually they walk away and find someone to work with who will let them be themselves.

The world would be poorer for having a less outspoken, less arrogant Ali — his arrogance drove him to back up his boasts and made him greater — and a less sullen, mean-spirited George in his first career might not have intimidated opponents the way he did and may not have provided the inner motivation to prove himself.

You change one thing about a person and maybe you change a lot of other things that they need. The law of unintended consequences.

To thine own self be true.

 

He has also said numerous times Dundee didn’t teach him how to fight.

 

I didn’t mean to post that incomplete I was going to respond much more lengthy but I’m walking my dog and typing with one hand lol.

 

Correct. Ali was already an Olympic champion. But you might notice he got better. How did that happen?

If Ali had started his pro career with Archie Moore, the exact same would have been true — the person who teaches someone to fight is usually the one they begin with when they walk in the gym for the first time and hones them into an amateur. That’s who is teaching the basics and the how-to. Archie wouldn’t have been the one who taught Ali how to fight.

Same with (pick your great athlete): Bill Belichick didn’t teach Tom Brady to throw a football, but he did teach him a lot about being a great QB; the best NBA players weren’t taught how to shoot or dribble by their pro coaches, but those coaches put them in position for success to use their talents; no Hall of Fame pitcher arrived in the major leagues not knowing how to throw a ball, lol.

There are a few exceptions in boxing: Emanuel Steward taught Thomas Hearns from the ground up and Hilmer Kenty too … but he didn’t teach Wlad or Lennox ‘how to fight.’ Does that mean he didn’t add anything to them?

Muhammad Ali on Angelo Dundee:

“He’s one of the best in the world. You see, a real TRAINER, when he gets a real fighter, he don’t have to train him, just COACH HIM ON WHAT TO DO and who he’s fighting and WHAT TYPE STYLE TO FIGHT, what to look for, WHAT HIS WEAK POINTS ARE.

“But to drill you every day on how to punch, I had that when I got to him.”

This is The Greatest, a man who hired Dundee and worked with him from the start to the end of his professional career, saying Dundee was one of the best in the world and explaining what the role of a TRAINER is.

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Either Dick later brought him in, or it was Archie Moore with whom he worked closely while they were both still active fighters. George reportedly admired Sandy, and he was the person to convince him to go back to eating meat when he went vegetarian at some point. You can see Sandy along Moore in his corner during Rumble in the Jungle. Red shirt and glasses.

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2:11. He is kneeling next to George. Just a GOAT corner. Ali upsetting Foreman while he had Moore and Saddler in his corner is absolutely legendary, though it's in line with Freddie Roach's take on corners—a fighter is still the most important part and there rarely is fixing things mid-fight.

EDIT: If you google 'George Foreman and Sandy Saddler' you will see a lot of photos with them together. Sandy Saddler brutally knocked out his defensive archwizard, George succumbed to his. On another interesting note, Foreman fought much more like Sandy during his first career, but during his comeback channeled Archie who was with him in his corner. I'm glad he used his oldest ally, the long guard, to recapture the championship from Moorer. Seemed fitting.

 

GOAT corner? They really dropped the ball on the plan or Foreman was just a fool, guess you’re only as good as your fighters ears eh? so I’d agree with Roach but not “fixing things mid way through” there is always time to turn it around if someone in the corner sees something and the fighter is willing. I think Foreman’s “long guard” is so overstated he found a way of fighting so he didn’t need to learn how to move his head… see how that worked out with Ali and Uncle Jimmy? Holmes did it much better and didn’t need to resort to as much BS shoving, I found it amusing that Muhammad Ali was shoving and man handling Foreman illegally the way Frazier had it as karma.

 

I would say Ali got better by sparring? fighting? Experimenting? and being taught things by people other than Angelo Dundee? I won’t use the word trainer then, I’ll use the word “teacher” Angelo was no teacher he didn’t teach Ali to fight or add anything to his skill set was my point, not a guy you’d send someone to, to build a fighter the way Gil Clancy was capable of… fighters certainly get better all the time after the olympics and Archie Moore may not have taught him how to hold his hands or move his feet but he’d have built on Ali in a way Dundee was totally incapable of, Archie himself was a more skilled fighter then Ali by quite a margin and could’ve added plenty to his game Steward 100% taught Wlad and Lennox how to fight better and how to do things differently Angelo couldn’t do that if he wanted to… you do point out a good point though, fighters only improve as much as they’re willing to learn do you see any of George Benton’s influence on Meldrick Taylor? From his days at the olympics to Chavez he didn’t seem to develop at all Moore had Ali listened would have learnt more then he ever could’ve dreamed by staying with Dundee he’s still the GOAT but he’d be better - he wanted Harry Wiley but unfortunately he passed after there short time together didn’t he?

 

GOAT in a more fanboy sense of the word, but there was no fixing the power-drunk George further guided by his brother's advice to 'break his arms so he can't fight.' He had no fear, per his own words, and though Ali was just another victim. It cost him dearly, because Ali was to be taken every bit seriously. Archie said it best: Foreman completely failed to take into account he is in the ring with a defensive wizard of high-caliber and not a knockout victim like everybody claimed (and Ali was just that though he had bouts where he was hittable due to laziness or poor preparation; not a Locche type of effortless slickness.) Him being a 26-years old late starter didn't help either; Ali was a venerate fighter who fought Liston when George was at high-school age*. All things considered, Foreman was still a very, very talented fighter with fast progression and top notch drilling and timing.

The Foreman's shoving manhunt is a tad ridiculous. George got away with as much as he could—most professional fighters do, and despite having immensely well-drilled control game, he was by no means the first fighter to have some dirtier tactic in his repertoire. Jimmy Ellis was one of the first to shove back and stiff arm Frazier, and Ali serving the "karma" was a far, far more disgusting offender in Frazier-Ali II with the insufferable amount of clinches and neck-tying. Uncle Jimmy himself (whom I admire greatly as a defensive fighter) was so effective as a wizard because of the combination of head-movement, spoilery mindset, and octopus-like clinch-work. James was far more slick up-close compared to say Byrd who relied in part on his smaller stature, reflexes, and craft, but could be bullied inside by post-accident Golota and if I remember correctly Ike as well. Foreman was making space to absolutely unload and look for knockout, which should already be a redeeming quality from an entertainment point of view. If you want to go full purist, then Frazier, Armstrong, Locche and some others could arguably be bashed for going too low and working their way in with their heads, but professional standards at championship level are a tad more forgiving unless you go full Holyfield. You never go full Holyfield.

Larry had often more nuanced long guard, agreed, though at the same time used for different purpose. He also started boxing way earlier than George and spent more time at the top level. Not much shame in falling a bit short compared to a fellow top 10 (top 5 arguably) greatest heavyweight of all time. George can still be savagely nuanced though often not in a manner that made purists tingle. A solid league above the toolset of the likes of Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, or Cleveland Williams. In fact a lot of the tricks praised during his comeback were already seen in his first career.

... and George did use head and upper-body movement, or at least he wasn't as stiff as some portray him. It's another of the typical accusation that makes me think people only watch his highlight reel. His one of the go-to defensive maneuvers was ducking down and tying his opponent when they tried to go around his extended arms. It's just he used it as a reactive maneuver, not a proactive pattern. This drilled response of diving down when sensing an opponent looping his punches around his guard later helped him quickly adjust to the crossguard which is very much about narrowing a lot of shot-selection to looping punches aimed at the top of the head and making lower parts of the centreline a safe place to bob and weave around, or to shorten yourself to when needed. He wasn't Pernell in any sense of the word though, agreed.

 

You’re accusing me of only watching his highlights R? Show me these fights where he had anything but scarce and so-so head movement in the 70s? That is sir before I go full Holyfield on my keyboard, love a few time stamps if you’d be kind enough to point it out. Ali got his own karma for Frazier 2 don’t worry about it Buddha never forgets. “Savagely nuanced” is a bit rich for a guy who tried to break someone’s arms by punching them a mile wide.

 

Ah, no. Just strawman attacking some neophites that might be reading those posts without the courage to register on the forum and tag me every week in a Toney-Foreman I promised to reply in.

Cheers Journ. What I will always admit about George, is that he was young and learning on the job during his first reign. Had he not become so bitterly disillusioned with the business side of the game and stayed after the Young loss, he would arguably share an era with Holmes, balancing and making his skillset more whole and consistent. His progression prior to the Frazier fight (and the arrival of Archie Moore and Sandy Saddler in his corner around the time) was marked by clear and dynamic development as a fighter. Even under Clancy (even if the period is referred to as a weaker part of his career) he showed some impressive improvements in certain areas, and clearly absorbed knowledge at a fast pace. Combined with his second career using the crossguard, it was always my impression that George was much more malleable, changing, and adapting than say Frazier, or Norton. Even during his comeback as he aged he shifted his style a tad further from what it was when he for example fought Holyfield.

 

And as a massive fan of Sandy Saddler (Jesus, I love the man and it hurts watching him after Alzheimer got him) I don't believe in being too rough unless you venture into Evander, Zivic, and perhaps Klitschko territory. Frazier-Ali II aside, Muhammad was kind of beautiful with those clinches. Like an athletic master-boxer kangaroo. A true Fighting Jack.

 

So you’re just going to bypass my sole question about the claim that Foreman had good head movement? Nothing to point me towards? I’m not sure really how to reply to all of this but no hard feelings intended? I genuinely can’t tell if you’re unhappy tbh lol and that absolutely is not my intention R and the Toney vs Foreman tags are meant to be just caricature comedy of myself but you’re still a chicken, duck, Chiducken.

 

Bill Miller - James Toney
Jersey Joe - Buddy McGirt
Harry Wiley, George Gainford - Sugar Ray R
Floyd Patterson - Tracey Harris Patterson
George Benton - Meldrick / Evander

 

What question. I sometimes type on my phone on low brightness. Let me reread it.

EDIT: And definitely not unhappy. Debating and forums are the relaxing part of the sport. When I sound spiritedly disagreeable, it's always in competitive good-faith.

* I found the question.

 

Can you maybe keep replies tighter for me? I feel bad with my short replies on your posts, which are interesting the rat stuff was nice trivia but I will mostly side step a lot of the more poetic stuff and go straight for the throat on the boxing points. I don’t want you to think I don’t appreciate it though, I’m not an intellectual I’m a trailer park person so it may go wasted on me.