When was George Foreman at his best as a fighter?

Watch his career.

 

I have R and the real part lasts like 6 bloody fights… so maybe point a fight out would ya? Am I meant to make the claim of worlds best jabber off of efforts against O’Hallaran types too? So factually we have a round against Ali…Norton? and Frazier? Chuvalo? Where was it against Young? Peralta x2? World’s greatest ring cutter based on what man?

 

The moment you start throwing around sarcastic phrases like 'world's greatest ring cutter' (said one of the best ever, so close enough, granted) and hanging on to the Jack O'Halloran bout six months or so after his professional debut, which I mentioned as a response to supposed no head-movement (whereas Foreman clearly ducks, leans back, and rubber necks shots when he find it necessary to supplement his primary modes of defense) and move the goalpost to head-movement displayed against world class operators (which Norton of course isn't, because of your tasteless bias against him, and neither will be any fighter he's faced bar Young and Ali who are notorious all-time great defensive wizard with sharp, dynamic leads aimed at scoring points) it just becomes tedious.

Any good eye needs some seconds of Foreman-Norton, Foreman-Roman, or majority of his bouts after he was further polished when Dick Sadler brought in Archie Moore and Sandy Saddler to recognize the way he moves around the ring and uses grappling (which is attacked as senseless shoving, whilst it often has beautiful, hard to replicate body mechanics, timing, and composure) to see the craft. Often you can see it earlier than that.

You want to talk about 'myths?' He made his debut on 1969-06-23 with extremely limited amateur background. First Peralta bout less than a year into his professional career, and the stoppage of the ten times as experienced Chuvalo barely more than a year after the date. Both making the rankings in one way or another around the time (Peralta annually in '69, Chuvalo in '70) Two years into his career he became the only man at heavyweight to ever stop Peralta despite him surviving the likes of Bonavena and Lyle even while pushing well into his thirties. Dismantling Boone Kirkman at that time of their respective careers was not a bad win either. Foreman gets a lot of critique for his pre-Frazier career, but when you take into account non-existent amateur experience and put it next to Ali's and Frazier's and he does not look that bad, with Ali upping the pace with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper prior to the Liston bout (Archie was ranked, but yeah..) while Dick Sadler preferred to force the talked-about Frazier-Foreman bout with a streak of relatively meaningless knockouts during '72.

And yeah, George could slip and duck, especially those left hooks. You gotta give a lot more respect to Uncle Jimmy and Ali, because getting tagged by them is no shame, and by Young's own admission, George nearly turned his lights out at one point.

 

John i agree he was better in his prime. How do you think if the old and young version would face each other. Does old Foreman's strenghts nullify the younger man's aggression?

 

What i will say is OMG what a weird fight hahaha

 

87 - 91 Foreman is the best heavyweight that ever lived.

Slow is he ? Lmao

This guy is running a marathon and still gets the living daylights beaten out of him.

This is exactly how Joel Louis moved through the ring. Stalking and pouncing on his prey like a panther.
It's also exactly how gennady Golovkin used his feet. Is there utube vids showing GGG doing the Joe Louis shuffle. I'm sure there is lol

This content is protected

 

So there are no bouts to demonstrate his head movement just a couple instances? Like I said originally “so-so” put up something I’m sorry it’s tedious to show Foreman use head movement against credible opponents lol maybe it’s a sign I’m right? no bouts to show me he was “one of the best ever” at cutting off the ring? Buddy his “grappling” is built on half sometimes entirely illegal fluff pushing someone isn’t credible boxing… framing, smothering a persons hands, parries etc “hand fighting” like you call it yes credible skills but beautiful? lol That’s really romancing it a bit … I don’t think “slipping” a hook makes sense by the way? you can roll it “wrap it” but that’s a different thing. Yes 70s Foreman is a myth of epic proportions one of the most hysterically overrated fighters EVER literally ever… speaking of Roman (who?) are you talking about the fight where he like windmill winds up behind his head? If that was in black and white we’d all be talking about how far boxing has come but because it’s the 70s “Oh the misunderstood genius of it all! The unappreciated X factor qualifies at play!” Tasteless? Norton is a credible opponent, nothing really even happens in that fight btw, nowhere to say he had anything but as I said “so-so” head movement.

 

I do find it odd that nobody gives Foreman **** for windmilling punches from miles behind his head. Wilder does it and he's a disgrace to boxing, evidence of boxings decline. Foreman does it and he's brilliant, evidence of the golden age.

Idungetit

 

You’re a disgrace.

 

Astute observations re Foreman’s attributes. Top post Rollin.

 

You should do lengthier posts more often - brilliant! You certainly know your boxing.

 

I thought he was amazing in Frazier 2.

This content is protected

 

Totally agree.

A pleasure to watch and, at least imo, somewhat similar to the dismantling of Chuvalo in respect of the established backbone of his well applied jab and the overall patient and methodical nature of his performance.

Finally, it’s also another excellent example of Foreman’s notable accuracy which is all too often underrated.

 

Shoutout to @Journeyman92 because verbally sparring him will sharpen anybody.

 

Journ, you only need to turn on the as much as the Young, Norton, and Ali bouts to see him duck down below the first lead hook that tries to go around his jab-jamming extended rear hand. I cannot point at specific bouts precisely because of what I mentioned before—it's a part of his style he would visit, not a go-to way to defend and set-up counters. Saying he had no head-movement would mean he would get nailed far more that he was, especially with that stoppage orientated style.

What I can recommend to look for during case study is taking into account that:

a) Foreman will rarely slip sideways, like you slip straight punches, because his extended hands were supposed to take those punches off, or make them difficult to land. They were making that space 'busy' so to speak. On the other hand, you could 'cross' them, much like say a leftie crosses your jab with his straight left, or how Ezzard Charles punched right-on-right while betting he will take his head off-line. Ali wanted Kenny to do just that when he screamed 'right hand, right hand' in Caracas.

b) Foreman was notoriously difficult to land a left hook on. His preference for biceps and shoulder stops meant looping punches were difficult to land clean on him with full leverage and power transfer. He furthermore had that drilled response of ducking down just enough to let the hook only wrap around his head. He didn't need to go lower, because proper long guard only leaves certain angles to hook around.

c) When Foreman fought tall, he fought tall. And a lot of his opponents were shorter, nimbler movers (part of the reason pretty much nobody being able to control the center of the ring against him is a testament to his ring-cutting, because Roman despite the B-class that he was, should have come with running shoes to Tokyo, and yet failed to flee.) In such instances, he will more often frame and push while moving backwards, occasionally moving his head down and forward to make the hooks flying around his extended arms miss.

d) Foreman was a knockout artist. Which means, yeah, he will get nailed looking for that punch, though really not enough to label him as reckless. At the end of the day he was a meteorite though, looking for collision. To his credit, he did began reinventing himself under Clancy, and further reinvented himself during his comeback. George was young than me when he fought veteran Ali in Zaire. He was my age (28) when he retired (an age when some are only considered entering their prime.) Who knows how he would enter the Holmes era had he stayed focused and willing.

Now, I do understand your points. Foreman absolutely can get overhyped, or at least praised without understanding of his actual strengths and shortcomings. I find it a tad unfair to compare him to Cooney or Sanders though. What the hell has Gerry done after blasting few ancient corpses and losing to Holmes? Got stopped by Spinks and fueled Foreman's comeback campaign. Sanders got stopped twice by Tubbs and Rahman (which to my understanding is why Rahman got the shot at Lewis), and before finding the china of Klitschko, his most notable wins included destruction of a veteran Bert Cooper and... (?). After an over one year layoff split only by an exhibition, coming off the loss against Ali which by his own admission left him depressed, and with a new trainer, while trying to force a new boxer-like image, Foreman pushed through Lyle who just stopped Shavers and was long-time ranked contender (and would go on to be ranked, having the Bugner and LeDoux wins ahead of him yet, both of which were ranked with Joe being a mainstay name.) George clearly looked off in that bout but he pushed through hell to get the win. That alone ascends him beyond Gerry and Corrie in my book, skills and resume aside (can't you make a provocative if not entirely unreasonable case for comeback Foreman having comparable of better resume than Cooney or Sanders?)

I cannot find the link to the Ring panel, hopefully Turki did not delete some older content, but trainers, fighters, matchmakers, and historians ranking George usually had him at around 6th to 10th place, because as you mentioned, the likes of Holmes, Louis, or Ali simply had the resume and did not drop the ball in two important bouts (gee, the damn hypejob has nothing on those literal top 5 ATG of the division, what a sad make-believe of a fighter). George's comeback was miraculous (calculated), but it did not translate into sheer top five greatness the way a long prime career of taking names and kicking butts does. Matchmakers on the other hand though? Matchmakers had him third. His style and knockouts were like a herd of cash-cows for the likes of Don King who outright harassed Foreman to get him back into the ring post-Young (despite King telling George to slow down in the very same bout so that he can fill his pockets with ads revenue), his comeback was a marketing masterpiece which sidelined worthy contenders and made the bouts like Foreman-Tyson immensely attractive for nations like China who offered 25 mills for it to take place in Beijing if I remember correctly. Rumble in the Jungle was one of the only two bouts (the second was Hagler-Leonard) my father got to watch in the Eastern Bloc, and is an universally recognized top 10 of the most important heavyweight bouts, with When We Were Kings winning a ****ing Oscar for how they captured the magnitude of the bout.

We can disagree on George's style and efficacy, but let's give credit where credit is due—Foreman was a fantastic entertainer and businessman sparking flames in the mind of general public (the Cooney stoppage, sweet Jesus), maneuvering around crones like Arum who would sell his comeback story with a few careless fights against young, fresh contenders with time to rebuild, and participating in some of the most important bouts in the eras he participated in.