Would Prime Foreman Ever Beat Jimmy Young?

Young foreman lost mentally. He got frustrated.
Boxing is 99% mental fortitude demanding

 

It always seems off to me that Young is the one who needs to produce evidence he could beat Foreman, had a stylistic advantage over Foreman, etc.

He won the actual fight. And that still isn't enough.

 

Foreman was 0-2 against slick fighters in the 70s and 0-0 against them in his comeback.

 

I'll address Peralta first. Foreman was extremely green when he faced Peralta. He'd have had a much easier time with him 3-4 years later.

Regarding my reasons for thinking it's obvious a prime Foreman always beats Young.

1. I've already stated earlier in this thread why Foreman wasn't the same post-Ali. I'm genuinely perplexed people here don't see the difference.

I just might be more observant because I used to be a boxer and have gone through the same thing. I've had trainers give me suggestions to try to do things more "correct" and "technical", and it was very awkward, unnatural, forced me to abandon my instincts, and left me unable to implement my usual gameplan. My body was screaming at me to cut that **** out and it showed. It absolutely cost me fights when I stepped up against better competition (I would've still lost but maybe I'd have managed to go through the entirety of a round on my feet ) I see the exact same thing in Foreman's body mechanics post-Ali.

2. That was one of the worst versions of Foreman (even the post-Ali Foreman), I'd seen. He'd been in Puerto Rico less than 24 hours to adjust to the weather, and the temperature of the arena was the highest seen in years (since Ali-Bugner II). Article clipped from Lincoln Journal Star - Newspapers.com™ That undoubtedly had an effect on Foreman who suffered a heat stroke and was subsequently hospitalized. Article clipped from Daily News - Newspapers.com™ Knowing Foreman would dehydrate himself, almost certainly played a roll.

He did very little in the fight, seemed content to follow Young around the ring, and do the bare minimum to win points, rather than hurt Young or even slow him down. Yet still tired badly. Against Ali, he also tired badly but at least there, he was throwing bomb after bomb round after round. We didn't see anywhere near that output against Young.

3. Even so, he hurt Young badly in the 7th round when tired and nearly knocked him out by his own admission. And that was, with a noticeably lesser aggression compared to his prime self. Not to mention, his inferior power due to shifted body mechanics, and his foot movement. His stance was all ****ed up due to Clancy bringing his legs way to close together as I've stated earlier, which was never more apparent than in that round when he was chasing Young trying to finish him. That's imo the main obstacle that prevented Foreman from getting the KO.

I see no reason Young wouldn't be in the same scenario against a superior Foreman. This time he has to survive against a more aggressive, more powerful, more confident Foreman, with much much better Footwork fighting HIS fight, and not one bestowed upon him. Given how close he was to being KO'd by the version he actually fought, Young's chances of survival here are slim and none. imho.

4. Despite the revisionism on here, the fight was very close. Without the point deduction, Young would've had to settle for a split decision. If Foreman wins the 10th, the fight's a draw. I don't know what fight the judge who had it 118-111 was watching. Atrocious scorecard.
One judge and the NYT had Foreman ahead after 11 rounds even with the point deduction. It was objectively a very close fight and would not take much to flip it at all.

5. Young was not Ali. Nor is he as unbeatable as posters in this thread want to make him out to be. Shavers knocked him out once (though I'll concede Young was green in the first bout) and dropped him and held him to a draw in the rematch. Shavers was likely the hardest puncher of all time. But let's not kid ourselves he was a very flawed fighter. Foreman was the better puncher and better fighter in every facet of the game aside from power.

 

Yes, young was out on his feet and couple times, but Jimmy's style will always a banana peel for George

 

If Young was so slick and fast why was e holding on for dear life so much.
Foreman was practically wearing him like a t-shirt made of skin.

88 4mans ability on the inside will tear Young in half . No holdy hodly is going to hold up against that uppercut

 

@swagdelfadeel Had to quote you like this because there's too many character.

Yes Foreman was green when he fought Peralta but he was still extended in the 10th round even in the rematch. So i'm not seeing the logic behind Foreman being able to stop a very durable slick fighter early when Foreman has not shown to be overly successful against that type of style.

But Foreman being more aggressive early would leave him more vulnerable to tiring late on which is a bit of gamble as Young is durable and not the easiest fighter to stop historically let alone early not to mention he has a troubling style for Foreman.

I'm sorry Swag i don't see it as obvious just because Foreman beat Norton, Frazier, doesn't mean he has the same success vs Young because they are polar opposites style wise.

Neither Frazier, Norton, can fight on the back foot nor can they fight a smart defensive tactical fight.

Just because Frazier is greater than Young it doesn't mean stylistically Young isn't more of a problem for Foreman and that's the beauty of boxing styles make fights.

Ali was stationary target on the ropes which allowed Foreman to unload bombs at will on Ali.

Young was not a stationary target and Foreman had trouble getting his offence going.

I agree Foreman fought more measured vs Young but my argument is say if Foreman fought his old aggressive way and doesn't finish Young early which as i said is not an easy task considering Young's durability and defensive abilities then what ?

Your assumption is Foreman can just fight aggressively and get Young out of there early but i'm not seeing that based on the stylistic challenge that Foreman is up against. Add to the fact Young is very hard to stop historically he was a professional for 21 years and only stopped once early in his career and once on a cut I'm not seeing an easy path to victory that some are proclaiming here.

The problem with excuses like this is that you're forgetting Young had to deal with heat aswell that's not mutually exclusive to Foreman.

I think you're reaching a little bit here Swag you're suggesting Foreman had less power ? Tell that to Frazier who he had rocking and reeling anytime he landed a flush punch in their rematch.

Foreman landed a flush left hook on Young tried to finish him and failed due to Young being slippery and clever. Young recovered in the same round and even stung Foreman with some counter right hands later on in the round.

People keep using 7th round as same type of argument in favour of Foreman but if anything to me it's an argument in favour of Young. Young took one of Foreman's best punches was rocked but survived and even recovered in the same round, it didn't take Young a round or 2 to shake off the effects he recovered in the same round that's the key point here.

I don't think it was a very close fight i had it 116-111 for Young for me it was a very clear win for Young. The first half of the fight was nip and tuck but Young distanced himself from Foreman in the 2nd half of the fight.

Agreed 118-111 was too wide but i also think 115-114 was too close aswell.

The one judge who had it 116-112 for Young was about right for me it's clear win for Young in region of 3 or 4 points.

Young was even more green against Shavers than Foreman was against Peralta.

Young only had 10 professional fights and was mostly fighting 6 rounders when they put him in at the deep end vs the much more experienced Shavers who had over 40 fights.

There's no footage of the rematch but by the accounts i've seen Young got shafted in the rematch vs Shavers and deserved to win a decision despite being floored once in the fight.

I don't think anyone suggests Young is close to unbeatable ? it's just stylistically he has a troubling style for Foreman. He's a slick durable boxer who had a good peak between 1975-1977.

 

Hard to say. On the one hand, I think it's far to say that Foreman was damaged goods mentally after Ali. Besides having a near death experience in the shower after and retiring for 10 years, we have Gil Glancy's words about his poor and strange preparations, listening more to the guru he brought along than Clancy.

On the other, just as @Dynamicpuncher says, there are reasons to be believe Young would always be tricky for him. He was elusive and durable and didn't tire easily.

So just like Tyson-Douglas, this is one where you'd like to see a rematch with both at their best.

 

Two cards really disagreed with each other there. Only watched it once, but had it fairly close from memory. When it's described here you almost get the impression that Young had a shutout bar the 7th, but I thought it was more competitive than that.

Maybe should rewatch, but I felt that the deduction was harsh since Young was holding a lot and Foreman's pushing was a lot in response to that, as I remember. You could argue that Foreman was lucky in other fights to not be warned or penalised for his pushing, though.

 

The first win over Peralta was wide for two of the judges and ringside observers, and the second, when Foreman had been pro for just almost two years, was a stoppage, albeit pretty late. So don't know how much one should make of that. Not more than the Shavers fights for Young, probably.

And Ali was Ali and fought a quite unique fight. It's hard to know what's what here. Wish Foreman had met Lyle and Young before Ali. As it is now, Foreman struggled with every big, strong puncher he met and with every world class defensive boxer. But except for Ali, he met them all after Ali seemingly shattered his confidence, so hard to know.

 

Of George could force a stoppage or knockout in the early to mid rounds then yes. But the longer young lingered ( which he tended to do ) it gets more problematic for George.

 

If they had fought three times they woudl probably have split a series.

 

The Foreman Mafia will be seething at this thread, no, no he would not. GF was in his prime ffs his career in the 70s.... beat JF, beat KN, lose to MA, lose to JY.

 

Young only got stopped once in his career and it was by Shavers while Young was totally inexperienced (+cuts against Cooney). Foreman wouldn’t stop him. Best case scenario for Foreman is that he wins a decision by about a point while huffing and puffing and looking horrible or he wins at cut roulette like Cooney.