Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Your argument overlooks the specific stylistic mechanics we have been discussing, relying instead on fighter reputations and "what-ifs." This avoids the core technical realities of these matchups.

Using Joe Frazier as a counter-argument is a misunderstanding of that rivalry. Frazier landed his legendary hook by applying his constant, bobbing-and-weaving pressure, a swarming style entirely different from that of a conventional boxer. Ali didn't solve Frazier's pressure; he survived it through sheer toughness, taking terrible punishment and hitting the canvas in the final round of their first fight. This proves that a relentless body attack was incredibly effective against him. A fighter like Joe Louis wouldn't need Frazier's swarm, his methodical, ring-cutting pressure was designed to do the same thing, drain Ali's legs and break him down, a task proven possible by both Frazier and Norton. The later fights are less relevant, as Frazier was past his peak after the immense punishment he took in the "Fight of the Century" and his bout with George Foreman.

Your comparison of Ernie Terrell to modern super-heavyweights also misses the mark. Terrell's "jabbing-and-holding style" was a system to clinch and maul, not a dominant weapon to control a fight from the outside. A fighter like Lennox Lewis, by contrast, used the jab as a battering ram to establish distance and set up power shots. This brings us to the crucial point you're avoiding, physics. Ali's entire defensive system was built on leaning back from the waist. Against an opponent 3-4 inches taller with a significant reach advantage, that movement places his head directly into the path of their right hand. It’s a geometric problem his style was never designed to solve.

Every great fighter has tough nights, but Holmes having close fights with Williams or Witherspoon doesn't negate his defining asset: arguably the single greatest jab in heavyweight history. That jab is the perfect tool to exploit Ali's most evident technical flaw. Ken Norton's personal opinion of Ali is respectful, but his fights are the data that matters. They provide the technical proof that a disciplined jab disrupts Ali's entire game5. Believing a prime Ali would handle that strategy "with ease" requires ignoring this evidence.

Finally, dismissing the southpaw issue as speculation is a critical error. Ali's legendary reflexes and defensive "radar" were calibrated almost exclusively against orthodox fighters. An elite southpaw like Oleksandr Usyk presents entirely different angles and neutralizes the lead-hand battle that Ali used to set up his entire offense. To assume Ali's genius would seamlessly translate to a high-level puzzle he never had to solve is pure speculation especially since he never showed he could solve other puzzles like Norton. The absence of evidence is not evidence of success.

 

Six years isn't 12 years.

Joe Louis reigned for nearly 12 years. What year in Sonny's career does Liston have to beat Braddock, fight everyone Joe did, reign as long as Joe did and finish with two wins over Walcott?

If he was shot by 1969, then he'd have to win the title in 1956 to still be good in 1968.

Liston only had one fight in 1956 and didn't even score a KO.

 

It makes him a better H2H win then a one armed Machen, Machen is not preparation for Conn, Conn took Louis to the edge, Liston was dispatched easily by the only great fighter he met.

 

I think Ali would find it easier to land on Louis ,than he did Frazier.

 

You keep repeating this "one armed "stuff.I don't buy it.I see no evidence on the film that Machen was injured.

Which great heavies did Conn beat?
Which heavies as good as
Baker
Jackson
DeJohn
Valdes x2
Maxim x2
Jones
Did he beat ?

 

Couldn't care less we've already been over this. Conn is the better boxer then Machen we agree and that's the bottom line, I am not here to argue about HW resumes it's a H2H thing and in that respect Eddie Machen is a 2nd rater. If you don't see him as injured it would just mean he fought in a limited one handed way against Liston, fine so be it he just had a low fight IQ instead in your world.

 

Not like he struggled much Ali landed 27% of his power punches on Frazier in the FOTC. Louis was much harder to hit clean.

 

I'm unusual when some one makes a statement I think is wrong I require proof of their statement and you haven't given any.All you do is keep repeating he was one armed,and when I disagree with you,you say you couldnt care less.That isn't debating ,it's petulance.

 

Kick rocks and go passively aggressively tear down Marciano somewhere lol.

 

I disagree Louis had little head movement,and was dropped by slow punchers like
B Baer
Galento
Staggered by Brawlers like Mauriello.
Dropped by Braddock,dropped by Walcott x3, dropped by Schmeling x2.

I don't know how many power punches Ali landed on Frazier ,

but I would expect him to land more on Louis.

No we don't agree that's the bottom line.
Bivol is a better boxer than Bakole,that doesn't mean he beats him at heavyweight.
What has Marciano to do with this thread?
This is akin to," yaah boo sucks",and just as childish.

 

I think that Machen isn’t good enough evidence to suggest that Liston beats Conn or Walcott, Conn had a chin, helluva chin and proved himself against Louis he had generational skills that’s the difference. They’re just too slick with it Liston almost fouled out against Machen who had 1/2 the skill. Posting discouraging comments about Marciano has been your thing FOREVER lol im just poking fun a bit.

 

Leotis Martin, Machen, and Marshall were not great light heavyweights and were even worse heavyweights, but they did well against Liston, and Conn is better than all three.

 

Guess what’s inbound? “B-but that doesn’t count” lol.

 

Sonny Liston: The Big Bear Who Would Have Ruled Joe Louis's Heavyweight Jungle.

Step aside from the smoke-filled mythos, the sepia-toned nostalgia, and the echo of “that guy who lost to Cassius Clay.” Let’s talk about Sonny Liston—the Big Bear, the man with the telephone pole jab, fists like anvils, and a stare that could freeze a charging bull in mid-stride. If you want to measure Liston by the yardstick of his losses to a young Muhammad Ali, you’re missing the forest for the trees. Let’s imagine how Liston would have fared against every man Joe Louis faced during his legendary heavyweight title defenses. Spoiler: Sonny goes undefeated.

First, let’s dispel the notion that Liston’s legacy begins and ends with his losses to Ali. When Liston stepped into the ring, he was widely regarded as unbeatable, a destroyer who had mowed down Floyd Patterson—twice—in the first round, and who carried a jab so powerful it could rearrange a man’s dental records. His losses to Ali were shrouded in controversy—a bum shoulder, whispers of mob involvement, and the blinding speed of a once-in-a-generation fighter. But to define Liston by those nights is to ignore the sum of his savage artistry in the ring.

And let’s not forget the cloud of uncertainty that hovered over his age. Officially, Liston claimed to be 32 when he fought Clay in 1964, but many believed he was older—possibly 34, 36, or even in his mid-40s. The truth is, no one really knew. Born into poverty with no birth certificate, Liston’s real age was a riddle, but what’s certain is that he was far from a fresh-faced contender when he faced Ali. Imagine what a prime, younger Liston—untouched by the wear and tear of a hard life—could have accomplished.

• At 6’1”, 215 pounds, with an 84-inch reach, that's right, an 84 inch reach! That's Tyson Fury territory. Liston was a physical specimen, the son of a tenant farmer who knew hard labor before he knew the ring.
  
• Raised under the iron hand of his father, Sonny’s toughness was forged in the fires of rural Arkansas and the hard streets of St. Louis. The scars from his father’s whippings were still visible decades later—a testament to the pain he endured and overcame.
  
• The Liston jab was a weapon of war, not just a rangefinder. It was a battering ram, a telephone pole that could break bones and spirits.
  
• Despite the myth of being a “one-track fighter,” Liston was a master of distance, timing, and intimidation. He cut off the ring with the patience of a hunter and finished with the violence of a predator.
  

Imagine Sonny Liston, fresh from serving in the military from 1942 to 1945—a disciplined, hardened man with the added steel of Army training. The Big Bear, now with regimented conditioning and a soldier’s focus, would be even more formidable stepping into the ring against Louis’s challengers.


Here’s how Liston would have fared, one by one, against the men who tried—and failed—to take the crown from the Brown Bomber:

Jim Braddock - Liston’s jab and power overwhelm Braddock early. Braddock’s heart can’t withstand the physicality—Liston by KO.

Tommy Farr - Farr’s durability only prolongs the inevitable. Liston’s jab and body work break him down—Liston by late stoppage.

Nathan Mann - Mann’s aggression meets Liston’s superior reach and counterpunching—Liston by mid-round KO.
Harry Thomas - Thomas’s lack of power makes him easy prey. Liston walks him down—Liston by KO.

Jack Roper - Roper’s defense is no match for Liston’s jab—Liston by early KO.

Tony Galento - Galento’s wild swings are neutralized by Liston’s reach and discipline—Liston by KO.

Bob Pastor - Pastor’s movement delays the end, but Liston’s jab is the difference—Liston by decision or late KO.

Arturo Godoy - Godoy’s crouch is met with Liston’s uppercut—Liston by KO.

Johnny Paychek - Paychek’s lack of top-tier experience shows—Liston by KO.

Al McCoy - McCoy is outgunned—Liston by KO.

Buddy Baer - Baer’s size is matched, but not his skill—Liston by KO.

Billy Conn - Conn’s speed and skill are admirable, but Liston’s jab and power are too much—Liston by KO.

Lou Nova - Nova’s toughness can’t withstand Liston’s relentless attack—Liston by KO.

Abe Simon - Simon’s size is neutralized by Liston’s jab—Liston by KO.

Buddy Baer - (rematch) Same result—Liston by KO.

Johnny Davis - Davis is outclassed—Liston by KO.

Tami Mauriello - Mauriello’s aggression is countered by Liston’s jab—Liston by KO.

Jersey Joe Walcott - Walcott’s craftiness makes it interesting, but Liston’s jab and power wear him down—Liston by late KO or decision.

Ezzard Charles - Charles’s skill makes it competitive, but Liston’s physicality is the difference—Liston by decision.
Joe Walcott - (rematch) Liston adapts and dominates—Liston by KO.

Lee Savold - Savold’s chin is tested and fails—Liston by KO.

• Like Louis, Liston’s presence alone was enough to win half the battle before the opening bell.
  
  
• Against men who struggled with Louis’s jab, Liston’s was even longer and heavier.
  
  
• Liston’s knockout ratio and ability to finish with either hand would overwhelm most of Louis’s challengers.
  
  
• Liston’s chin and toughness, honed by a brutal upbringing and a stint in the military, would see him through any rough patches.
  

Sonny Liston was more than a footnote in Ali’s rise. He was a force of nature, a champion forged in hardship, violence, and redemption. Against Joe Louis’s heavyweight gauntlet, Liston’s jab, power, and psychological warfare would see him emerge undefeated—a champion in any era, and a legend whose shadow looms larger than the myths that try to contain him. And let’s remember: when he lost to Ali, he may have been pushing 40 or even older, his best years behind him—yet he was still considered the most intimidating man in boxing.

“The only thing my old man ever gave me was a beating,” Liston once said. But in the ring, he gave out beatings that became legend.

So let’s remember Sonny Liston not as the man who lost to Cassius Clay, but as the Big Bear who could have ruled any jungle, any time—no matter what the birth certificate said.