Is Marciano...

It is a bit curious. Foreman is also slow, he also looks crude, he demonstrably has bad stamina (unlike Marciano), and Foreman's career trajectory is as you described. But Marciano somehow wasn't an athlete, and Foreman was.

They're both athletes, obviously. Albeit in different weight classes.

 

He tried telling me Tyson boxing twice as many years as Marciano is the same because they had similar amateur exp and career fight numbers over 4 years? lol that Marciano was padding his record when really he’s just learning on the job as a late start with half as much time to learn to box “nah numbers are it - if one fighter started at 13 and boxed 3 pro bouts at 21 he’s the same as the guy who boxed 3 pro bouts at 21 and started at 20.”

 

Respectfully -- and I share your disappointment at recitations of strings of context-free stats -- I think he's double counting.

As you pointed out, Marciano fought 23 times against people 190 and above. That leaves 49 - 23 = 26 fighters below 190.

His original post says that there are 26 fighters below 190. That part agrees with your math.

So where did his other stats come from?

Well, he says there are 17 under 185 pounds. Those guys under 185 pounds are also (by definition) under 190 pounds. So they're coming out of the same group of 26 fighters who were below 190.

Then there are 5 at 175 or under. Once again, he's drawing those from the larger category of "below 190." They're being double counted. (Since again, a 175 pound man is below 190; the man fits into both categories.)

It would've been clearer if he'd said, "He fought 26 times against people below 190 pounds, and out of those 26, 17 were below 185...etc."

Personally, I don't think the stats are remotely interesting or useful. But that's how he seems to be getting them.

 

It's rarely so simple. Roy is definitely much faster and I'm sure he'd land heavy leather on Marciano, but I think Marciano is among the worst match-ups possible for him. Roy didn't like being against the ropes, and Roy didn't jab too often. I think his style of defending the body with his arms and using his speed to keep his head safe would inevitably lead to him being against the ropes (ala the brief but informative Sosa fight), where Marciano's workrate would become a huge problem. It's one thing to dodge 4 or 5 punches, but it's quite another to take them on the arms all night and keep dodging them with your back on the ropes.

I think Marciano probably stops Jones in a fight similar to the Moore fight.

 

This is going off on a tangent.I never mentioned Ali.YOU are the one who originally propounded and excused Marciano's slow progress as being because he had only 18 amateur fights .
When I pointed out Moses Itauma had only 2 more at 20 you said, well he is more talented.I also gave you other examples.
Holmes,Berbick,and Tyson who had similar amateur experience to Marciano,but were moved a lot more rapidly you were flummoxed ,tried to save your face by saying Berbick was only an alphabet champ,as though that made the slightest difference to his development!
Then you fixated on Tyson ,saying he was boxing as a child,but you can't give any fights he had then!
You ignored Holmes because his career development makes Marciano look like he was wrapped in cotton wool in comparison!
Sorry if Cross Trainer finds my stats uninteresting but,here is some comparisons
Rocky Marciano 18 amateur fights.
27th Pro fight v Eatman 22-20-5 .Eatman had won1 of his last 8 and would retire after their fight.

Tyson Fury23 amateur fights.
23 rd Pro fight Chisora ,British Title.
Larry Holmes14 amateur fights.
26th Pro fight Shavers.
27 th Norton World Title.

Ken Norton10 amateur fights .
30th Pro fight Muhammad Ali.
Rocky Marciano32nd Pro fight.
Simmons 8-8-1.

35 th Wlad KLitschko World Title.

Fabio Wardley
No amateur fights . Half a dozen blue collar fights. British Champ in his 12 fight.

 

He’s the STAT MAN!
“10 years of boxing (Tyson) is the same as 5 years of boxing (Marciano)” - McVey basically

This content is protected

 

WK by his 27th fight had been pro for 3 years, but had been beaten up by journeyman Ross Purrity. Would take him 11 more fights & 2 more years to win his first world title over Byrd.. 5 years to become a world title holder basically.

Holmes 27th fight was Shavers.. fair play, dangerous fighter.. but Holmes had been pro for 5 years by then.. 28th fight was Norton for the title.

Now let's look at Marciano .. Marciano had been pro for 3 years too by his 27th fight.. & had already beaten 37-0 Lastarza, a highly regarded contender.. the fight was contentious but regardless, Rocky dropped him & won the SD.. i don't see any problem with any of that in comparison to the names cited..

Rocky beat Walcott two years later & 16 more fights down the line to become world champion.

All in all all 3 men became a HW champion of sorts in their 5th year as a professional. So i think you're all splitting hairs a bit..

I'll also add Marciano was beating decent fighter's along the way to becoming champion.. Lastarza, Layne, Savold, Matthews, ageing Louis etc.. ye Louis was old but weren't Sanders or Mercer when WK fought them? How old were Ali & Shavers when Holmes fought them?

There's nothing really worth arguing or detrimental here about Marciano or his journey to the belt in comparison to those two..

Marciano crammmed more in 8 years than most great HWs have.. i respect his fight frequency too, i don't think it was all just padding.. he also fought in an era with smaller gloves & one belt per division , so you knew who the man was unlike i.e WK who never faced his brother... Rocky's era was grittier & had more skill than Wlads too.. he also did it the proper way , trained hard, fough hard.. without PEDs (which IMO the K2 brothers were undoubtedly on) & endless rounds of groping..

Pointless debate really.

 

You don't have an answer to my facts. Tyson did not start boxing at age 10,but you haven't anything else to hang your hat on ,so keep ignoring my other examples like:
Holmes
Berbick
Norton
I'm a stat man? The reason you are still at the level you were as a poster when you first came here is you cannot admit you are wrong

Yes I double counted them when appropriate,why wouldn't I?
I gave the benefit of the doubt in the 190+pounders by including to men who weighed 190 1/4lbs.

What that other guy, who is very quick to call me a liar from the safety of his PC,needs to take into account is Marciano fought several guys twice.eg
Buonvino
Walcott
Charles
Lastarza
Lowry

Having bought a Marciano film collection in the early 60's,read 6 books on him ,and viewed every scrap of film there is of him fighting,and interviewed Don Cockell about their fight , I flatter myself [misguidedly perhaps,]that I know a little about the man.I'm by no means an expert on him or any individual boxer, or era , but I like to think I am beyond the green horn stage.I didnt," open the ball ,"on amateur experience,but I caught it and ran with it .
Ive been hearing how little Marciano was always battling these much bigger guys for over half a century,17 of his opponents were actually lighter.Eight had losing records ,some of whom he fought when he was quite into his career.

There is more BS attached to Marciano than any other fighter I can think of.
I sometimes wonder if things might have been different had he not been White?

 

Never said Tyson was 10 Statman it was an example. Honestly your line of reasoning ain’t conducive to discussion, you know everything… Marciano and Tyson had similar fight counts but MT was more successful you have to understand he had been learning to box twice as long and that means something… Marciano had been training for how long when he fought Louis? How long had Tyson been boxing when he won the title? Tyson started at 13 and Marciano 23 (right?) so I’d like you to figure out why MT had a huge advantage lol he had been learning to box for a decade Marciano had been training for how long when he fought Louis? PLEASE ANSWER SIR.

 

Really? Race card now , grow up.

 

Wlad was world champion in his 35th fight .
Marciano in his 43rd.
I didnt say his record was all padding I said it was heavily padded,and I stand by that.
His first ranked opponent was Layne in his 36th fight.He fought 8 times against ranked men.
LIston12 Amateur fights won the title in his 35th fight
Marciano18 Amateur fights,his 35th fight? Willis Applegate11-14-2.
Don't tell me Marciano wasn't cautiously managed or that his record was not padded.

 

No I don't know everything,just a bit more than you.
You are fixated on Tyson,how about you address the following fighters records.
Liston 12 amateur fights,won the title in his 35th fight.
Norton 10 amateur fights,fighting and beating Ali in his 30th fight.
Holmes14 amateur fights won title in his 27th fight.
Fury 23 amateur fights won title in his 25th fight.

 

How long had they all been boxing total for? As in when did they start learning how to fight? It’s quite important, most seem to have about a decade or just under of experience overall when they win the title.

 

Lastarza was not ranked when he first fought Marciano,ie he was not a highly regarded contender,in fact he was a protected fighter,who was kept away from dangerous opponents,so his manager could parlay his close loss to Marciano into a title shot he really did not deserve .

 

Point out where I said the underlined.

Marciano fought 22 people 190lbs or over Two of them were a quarter of a pound over and are included.
Meeks 1
Jackson 2
Hardeman 3
Cockell 4
Buonvino 5
Charles 6
Savold 7
Louis 8
Applegate 9
Simmons 10
Wilson 11
Eatman12
Connolly 13
Donato 14
Walls 15
Pretzie 16
Ferron17
Jackson 18
Walcott 19
Shkor 20
Dominic 21
Beshore 22

LIke I said you can't read.