Joe Louis would beat Muhammad Ali… possibly quite badly

I happen to think one of Ali's biggest flaws and greatest weapons was his ego. He fought down and up to the estimation of his opponent's prowess. Against hard-hitting monsters in Foreman and Liston, eyes wide, super focus, more conventional guard, not afraid to power punch with the bigger puncher. Against perceived lesser threats, more dancing, playing to the crowd, theatrics etc.

By the time he's fighting Terrell and Folley, he's so sure of his reflexes and head movement that he's literally walking up and letting them punch at him at times. In the Terrell, he wanted to punish him so more offensive output but Ali still takes the time to slip and roll consecutive shots with his hands down by his side.

Folley was a wily veteran and Ali is clearly looking to land the counter right hand. He's testing out his reflex and timing - almost like a spar. When he eventually lands it, his right follows Folley's jab back to base so the trajectory is almost hidden by Folley's own good punch mechanics, it's the follow up right that's crazy as it's so relaxed in how it's thrown but ends him instantly.

This level of Ali likely had another level to transcend to - had he no exile and continued fighting, could've arguably seen Frazier late '68, early '69 and would've won, too.

As for the Rope A Dope, Ali was training for it since the first Liston - just never had to use it as his speed, movement and legs were that far above. Later Ali of the 70s doesn't have the legs, stamina, reflexes and movement of his younger self - saw the Rope A Dope for extended periods in a way we never had to.

One thing tho that's for sure, Ali took a body shot better than anyone that I've ever seen - Louis isn't going to beat him off one body shot. Foreman is Foreman and Frazier brings a relentlessness, coupled with punching up out of his rhythmic bobbing movement that few fighters can rival.

Louis has a great jab but I don't think he uses it and follows up ala Norton or gets under the Ali jab with counters ala Frazier. References to both fighters when the stylistic tendencies differ and we are talking a prime Ali seems strange.

 

Excellent post!

 

Marciano out of nowhere. Also you still constantly double and even triple post. That's bad etiquette. As for the actual thread. This fight would be extremely punishing for Ali. He's certainly not going to be able to keep Louis off of him for 15 rounds and he's up against one of the greatest offensive fighters ever. One thing Ali has going for him though is that he's excellent at stifling offense with clinching tactics. And the beginning rounds probably go to Ali. It would take time for the Brown bomber to find his mark.

 

Agreed. To add I think Ali biggest weakness was that he didn't really have a effective defensive system once his legs started to slow down. He relied on either Rope a Dope or taking lots of punches flush which I think probably took some time off his life.

From 1975 onwards he stopped coming in the 210s range which he was still coming in around 1970-1974 so maybe stopped training as hard which also probably played part as well.

 

Ali's defence was legs, reflexes and head movement primarily. Hand and glove placement wasn't part of his bread and butter defence but yet in the first Liston and against Foreman, you can find parries, elbow and forearm blocks, bouncing shots off his shoulder and a few other higher skilled defensive manoeuvres.

Ali's main issue is he danced and threw the jab with that flicking motion and when the legs were gone post-exile (he used to throw a quick, bladed jab to the body pre-exile) a big part of his offence and tempo setting was gone.

Another part of the equation is that he was suffering chronic hand issues post-exile. Hard to punch a man off you if you're having to hold back somewhat.

Add in his appetite with the fork and lesser work ethic - meticulous gym trainer by all accounts pre-exile, not as dedicated when he came back, despite the great run of 72 - 74, it all adds up to vulnerability.

 

I was responding to this.
"Frazier said his boxing style was based on Henry Armstrong for what it's worth."
And adding additional information,
Don't try and lecture me ,you haven't the credentials yet.

 

What does double and triple post mean?

 

Yet again you’ve chosen to reply to one of my posts that wasn’t addressed to you.

If you had actually been reading properly and understood the context you would know why I clinked the clip of Ali in 1975. Yes, 1975, which is obviously mid 70s exactly, not late 70s at any rate.

 

I know you are oe of those guys that care about shock value over content and that aside you're welcome to your own opinions bt not your own facts.

You keep parroting Burt Sugar ... try reading Ray Robinson's bio ... he went on a tangent describing his great friend Louis was great but would have been greater if he adjusted the programing of his footwork. He was trained to maximize power .. He looked like crap vs Pastor because he couldn't catch him and Pastor was much smaller and inferior to a prime Ali ... Same vs Conn. Same vs Jersey Joe ... if Joe trained for speed and to go after Ali it could be very interesting but it's a tough stylistic match up for him ...

 

I’ll second @mcvey - excellent post.

Ali had been training/prepping for the contingency of both defending and fighting off the ropes for a long time - he simply wasn’t put upon in his prime to put his abilities in those regards into serious practice -

Frazier successes against Ali (with Ali on the ropes) need to factor that Frazier himself was very much at home and extremely adept at engaging in that particular style of fight - and there was also Ali’s own preceding 3.5 year lay off, associated rustiness, lack of match fitness and lack of fine tuning to be getting on with.

 

FK's

 

Beat him at what, "shuffle" board?

 

Dude you're a bore with this predictable throwing out outrageous statements just to get attention ... try bringing some value and grow up .. it's so dull.