Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

The point is the size of the competition. If it matters for some, it matters for all.

 

Not if they’d all totally be 6ft5 240lbs and shredded today with modern nutrition. Amateur.

 

But you must understand, they were very heavy pounds.

 

Better bump an old one than start a new thread with a line like 'Call me a complete bell end but I think Sonny Liston was useless...' then having a hissy fit when people say 'Ya bell end' - most of whom haven't even read on to see the invitation to call him by the name relates to his opinion on Sonny not overall 'personality'.

 

No you are not correct,and Liston ushered in the era of the big heavies ,there had obviously been outliers before him, but after him, with a few exceptions the 200lbs plus heavies would begin to dominate.
Liston at 212 lbs was big enough to beat any heavyweight IF he was good enough and except for 1, an ATG he was.

Marciano at185lbs was NOT.So your laborious and quite frankly tedious efforts to prove some kind of double standard here fails miserably.

 

He is not a big heavy by today's standards, and his best opponents were diminutive. That's the point.

 

Liston at212lbs with an 84 in reach and the ability to hit like a truck was capable of beating anybody.To use a present day fighter who is 5 ft 11 1/2in with a 73 in reach and who possesses excellent power but 24 hours before fight time weighs 175lbs ,[he probably rehydrates to 190lbs,come fight night ,] for an example .I'm talking about Beterbiev,who has candidly stated he would not fight Usyk now because the Ukrainian is now too big and strong for him.
Size is important ,that is obvious to anyone who follows the sport ,if it were not there would be no need for weight classes,but up to certain limits, it will not decide who wins a fight talent and ability must accompany that size.
Certain limits? Well Tommy Burns would not beat Valuev imo,Harold Johnson would not beat Lennox Lewis.

 

212 isn't big--cruisers walk in at that with rehydration these days. He was 6'1". "Hit like a truck" has nothing to with it.

The size fetishists have to take into account that his four best wins were against 189, 194, 196, and 198.

That is all.

 

Valdes 6'3" 211lbs
McMurray6' 4" 210lbs
Lincoln 6'2" 210lbs
Clark6'3" 215lbs
McMurray 6'4"210lbs
Rush 6'2"? 214lbs
King 6'2" 204lbs
Wiliams 6'2" 215lbs x2
Zech 6'5" 226lbs
Wepner 6'4"228lbs
DeJohn 6'2 1/2" 202lbs
YOU keep harping on about Marciano in this thread,well now is your chance to provide us with the size equivalent of these Liston opponents that Marciano fought and beat!
Go For It !!!

 

You deny size matters? Why do you think the following added weight to compete at heavyweight?
Ellis,Holyfield,Moorer,Jones,Haye, M Spinks ,Usyk.
What do these all also have in common?
They had the height and reach to successfully add those extra pounds.
Liston at 212 is big enough to compete, Wilder and Usyk have proven that.
Now when was the last time a 5'10" 185lbs man was successful against prime, class heavyweights who were 6ft+ and 200lbs+?

 

What are Louis' best 4 wins?
194lbs Walcott
169lbs Conn
193lbs Schmeling
210lbs Baer
Since you are determined to make this Liston thread all about Marciano.

212lbs isnt big? Not by todays standards it isnt ,but it's 27lbs bigger than Marciano's average weight,add 14 inches of reach to that and 3 inches of height and you have a man with the frame and strength to compete today.
The crucial difference is Louis, like Liston, proved he could beat the big good guys like B Baer,M Baer,Simon, Carnera
Marciano never did.

 

It is interesting to note tho that many of Listons opponents lost to the LHWs of the era..

Patterson to Maxim
Besmanoff to Moore & Durelle
Machen to Johnson
Williams to Satterfield
Valdes to Moore
Howard king to Moore multiple times
Marty Marshall to Satterfield

Moore keeps popping up in fact.. Alejandro Lavorante stopped Zora Folley yet was carried from the ring on a stretcher following the beating Moore gave him.. Archie Moore was a machine man..

So not only was Liston mainly beating up on opposition that were smaller than him, they in turn were losing to men naturally smaller than them. That's gotta be a first LOL

 

OKay,lets look at your statements.
PATTERSON V MAXIM
Patterson having his 14th fight and weighing168lbs lost a close decision to 105 fight 177lbs Maxim.
Moore v Besmanoff
Moore weighing198 1/2lbs beat Besmanoff weighing206 1/2lbs .He did so because he was a better heavyweight than Besmanoff.
Moore v King
Moore199 King 200
Moore189 1/2 King191
Moore 196 1/2 King 194 1/2
Moore195 1/2 King195
Moore 191 King188
So in 5 fights Moore was the bigger man in three of them.again Moore won the series because he was the better heavyweight,which in fact he was for all 5 fights.

Moore v Besmanoff.
Moore was 198 1/2lbs for this fight,just 8lbs lighter than Besmanoff.

Besmanoff v Durelle Besmanoff 189lbs Durelle 177 1/4lbs
Durelle won Moore.14lbs difference

Moore stated Durelle was one of the 2 hardest punchers he faced, and the other one was not your hero.Lol
Moore v Valdes
Moore 180lbs Valdes 209 1/2lbs
Moore 196 1/2 Valdes 209 1/lbs.
Moore v Lavorante
Moore 199lbs Lavorante211lbs
Two heavyweights
Williams v Satterfield
Williams 21 years old a late sub was 202lbs Satterfield was 1771/4lbs Satterfield a thunderous puncher,he was the other fighter Moore said hit him the hardest ko'd Williams.

So in the14 fights you gave ,only 2 of them were examples of Lhvs beating heavies!
This ranks with your statement below
"ageing Nino Valdes was shot.. hadn't had a good win in about 7 years"
When in fact he had beaten 3 top ten ranked men the previous year!
Here's another of your statements concerning Johnson beating Machen.
"A well past his best 181lb Harold Johnson did it.."

Here's some more of your BS below.
"So not only was Liston mainly beating up on opposition that were smaller than him"
Here's my answer.
Valdes 6'3" 211lbs
McMurray6' 4" 210lbs
Lincoln 6'2" 210lbs
Clark6'3" 215lbs
McMurray 6'4"210lbs
Rush 6'2"? 214lbs
King 6'2" 204lbs
Wiliams 6'2" 215lbs x2
Zech 6'5" 226lbs
Wepner 6'4"228lbs
DeJohn 6'2 1/2" 202lbs
Tiny aren't they?lol
Now post Marciano's equivalents?
Johnson went on to win the Lhvy title"
You were the guy screaming for an apology from me because I mistakenly said Lastarza was not ranked when he fought Marciano the first time,which I then conceded he was.
Yet I've proved you wrong three times on this thread and you haven't admitted it once ,let alone apologised!

 

Walcott ... 198 and 6 foot tall.
****ell ... 205 and 5'11".
Rex Layne ... 200 and over 6'.
Louis ... 218 and 6'1".
Lee Savold ... 200 and 6'.
Jerry Jackson ... 254.
Pat Connolly ... 213 and 6'5".
Gilley Ferron ... 205.
Johnny Shkor ... 225 and 6'5".
Bill Hardeman ... 207
Artie Donato ... 202
Eldridge Eatman ... 207
Keene Simmons ... 201
Bill Wilson ... 229 and 6'2".