Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Would have to

He could also easier pack on 20lbs of solid muscle mass using modern anabolic techniques even without drugs and be a very dangerous contender

TBH a few 210lb boxers have proved themselves capable over the last 30 years as it is

 

Patterson's diminutive size and lack durability when combined with his style spelled doom vs. Liston. Williams was a good puncher, perhaps the only one on the list. Machen is #2 or #3 on this list of wins. Compared to other hall of fame heavyweights, the list of wins is a C+ At the bottom. However Liston's results vs. them is grade A.

 

Partially accurate,Layne was 193lbs .Louis was 213 3/4lbs.Ferron was198lbs
Now let's look at their records as well as their size.
Cockell was a Euro level light heavyweight who contracted glandular fever which sent his metabolism out of control and he became obese.
Savold was having his last fight,he had been badly beaten by Louis and the Commission withdrew his licence for his own protection.

Jackson was a fat sausage whose record is 4-2-0 he retired after their.
fight.
Connolly was 8-5-0 and had won 4 of his last 9.
Ferron was 4-10-0 he would have a couple, more lose them and retire at 4-13-0.
Shkor 32-18-2 had been ko'd in 1 round his previous fight and had won2 of his last11.
Hardeman1-5-0 Enough said! lol
Donato 7-10-0 Had won 2 of last 7,he would have 2 more lose and retire.
Eatman 22-20-5 Had lost his last 5, had won 1 of last 8 he retired after this fight.
Simmons 8-8- 1 A career sparring partner.He finished up 9-22-1 Marciano was in real danger of losing this fight because of a badly cut eye.
Wilson 41-11-3 this fight was stopped before it had properly begun Wilson sustained a badly lacerated eye in the opening round and the bout was stopped.Wilson was floored and beaten by Nardico, a lhvy in his previous fight and was stopped 11 times.

Quantity alone won't cut it!
You need quality with it!
Of these names you bring up,two were washed up, Layne was the only guy of any quality of the remainder and he was 193lbs,the rest were barely journeyman!

 

He beat ranked 200lbs+ men.

 

What aren't u grasping? Nino Valdes was shot. That isn't BS.. why are u citing the previous year? Cite the year he fought Liston .. 59.. he was 34 & had fought 3 fights leading up to Liston .. losing 2.. one to Alonso Johnson who never best anyone of note & who lost 17 of his 26 following bouts. The other was a stoppage loss to Charlie Powell who went on to lose the majority of his other bouts.

In 58.. what did he do that was so great anyway? Lost to Alex Miteff who finished with a record of 25-13-1.. Got a SD over Wayne Betthea.. Bethea had a win over Charles 2 years earlier but it was a Charles whod been beaten twice by both Marciano & Tommy Jackson .. & others by then too.. Bethea finished 28-18-4..

He got a couple of SDs over Mike De John.. &? Dejohn had fought mostly 6 rounders & never got a win of any note.

Johnny Summerlin? Summerlins last ever fight .. Summerlins 4 opponents records in the year he lost to Valdes.. 15-3-1, 11-9-3, 6-3-1, 2-15-1.. hed also not fought the previous year, & the year before that hed mostly lost. AWFUL.

Harold Carter.. a decent fighter but nothing special, had had all those wars with Satterfield , Summerlin & Bethea by that point.

Pat McMurty? Come on ffs.. Mcmurty had done what? Beat a Chuvalo whod been pro for all of 2 years...

You're such a massive hypocrite, you're always pulling people up on applying context & actual state of said fighters.. but here you're just casually acting like these fellas were legit LMAO.. Valdes in 59 was done. Don't mention valdes to me again.

As for Harold Johnson.. Machen was prime & weighed 193lbs, Johnson was neither.. that Harold Johnson went on to win the LHW title doesn't disprove my statements that he was past his best or that Machen lost to a career LHW. You've proved nothing. As i said.. Listons opposition lost to LHWs. Case in point, Harold Johnson. You have cited many times the LHW careers of i.e Marcianos opposition , so what's wrong with other's doing it?

 

Let's play u at your own game.. You like to throw out Marciano stats to demean him.. here you cite the combined total of stoppage losses Marcianos opponents had at the time he fought them.. 117:

You then go on to mock that number:

Yet a count of Listons reveals his to be 154.. which makes a mockery of Liston by your own logic.

You're also like to skew the numbers by pointing out Marciano fought only 10 men over 200lbs as opposed to Listons 26.. but if we look at how many times they outweighed their opponents overall it turns out Liston outweighed his opposition in 44 of his bouts.. wheras the number for Rocky is 16.

.. & Liston himself was well over 200lbs anyway as opposed to a 185lb Marciano.. so saying he fought men over 200lbs doesn't prove sod all here for u anyway..

Also a look at Rockys record revealed the most he ever outweighed an opponent by was about 14lbs.. John Edwards early in his career.. Listons however is over 30lbs.. Wills Earl & Billy joiner...& as was already pointed out to u, most of his best wins he had a significant size advantage over.. Patterson 24lbs, Folley 14lbs, Machen 15lbs, Marshall 24lbs, Harris 17lbs..

The same cannot be said for Marciano.

I also never asked you to apologize. So you're lying again.. you've proved nothing other than the opposite.

I stand by all my statements that u seem to have an issue with.. that Liston was generally the bigger man & that many of his best opponents were beaten by former LHWs. Marciano was never beaten or in fact beaten by a former LHW.

Marciano >Liston.

 

I'll say also that in terms of resume quality Marcianos is better too..

Archie Moore beat numerous Liston opponents .. Valdez, Besmanoff, King, Whitehurst.. he also beat Harold Johnson who went on to beat Eddie Machen. As well as a host of greats...

Ezzard Charles going into the fight had blitzed huge punching Bob Satterfield who went on to beat Liston opponents Valdes, Marshall, Summerlin Williams & King. Admittedly Satterfield was hit & miss but that win stands up for Charles.. consider he went on to beat Williams & Valdez, two of Listons best wins..

Walcott beat Harold Johnson who would go on to beat Marshall, Machen, King, Whitehurst & Bethea.. all Liston opponents.

.. & unlike Liston they didn't have the size advantage & more often than not they fought better versions too..

Rocky beat those 3 men. And many other top fighters..

Yes you can say Marciano fought former LHWs too but unlike Liston & much of his opposition he wasn't really outsizing them was he.. 5'10, 185lbs, tiny reach.. & again unlike Listons opposition he ALWAYS beat them.

 

Point stands. Four best wins are 189, 194, 196, 198. This is a thread on Liston's quality of competition.

Smallest quality heavy these days is Usyk at 6'3 and over 220. Two of the federations set the heavyweight limit at 224, these days. What specific names did Liston beat in that range and do they stand up as good wins? Because we are pretty much relying on Chuck Wepner, here.

 

Have you actually looked at Cleveland William's record? He's not putting on weight and beating Daniel Dubois, much less Usyk.

He would absolutely have to start at cruiser. If he obtained success there, maybe a heavyweight run.

In any event, it's all a moot point, because he fought Liston at 212 both times.

 

A) It doesn't matter to me, because I correctly judge fighters by what they achieved IN THEIR OWN ERA.
B) We must be consistent, and if you are going to judge some fighters based on the size of their opposition, you have to be CONSISTENT and admit that Sonny's don't measure up well at all.

This has all been explained, it's not difficult to understand, should not be controversial, and others are getting it just fine.

 

A fighter’s resume stands on its own. Wins don’t retroactively transfer just because you beat someone who later or earlier beat other names. Marciano beating Moore doesn't mean he gets credit for everyone Moore beat, just like Frazier doesn't suddenly inherit the punchers Quarry took down.

 

In modern days you have protein shakes, creatine, mass shakes not to mention steroids and other things. None of these were around in the 50s

Childhood malnutrition was much more prevelant in these eras than in the modern era. Average height has increased because of this

 

Excellent point. I've always felt Liston's height, respective to his other proportions was stunted because of his lack of nutrition stemming from poverty.

 

If we wave our wands and remove the effects of childhood hardships on older heavyweights, we're not even talking about the same fighters anymore.

For all we know, a modern Liston with ample nutrition and a non-abusive home could grow up to be a 6'3", respectable member of his community who never boxed.

 

No , Marciano doesn't inherit Moores wins. Never said it did. I'm HLing the quality of Listons opponents versus Marcianos for the benefit of the poster in question who regularly does the same.

Marciano has the better quality wins IMO.. & he beat them without the physical gifts that Liston had.

The only caveat we can put on Rocky is age advantage.. but as I've shown they were still good enough to out perform most. Including much of Listons opposition..

Therefore i believe Rocky to have the better quality wins.