Marciano and Liston story!!

Not true against big Cat Williams. He fought two tough fights against a tough powerful foe and gutted out the wins.

 

Exactly. Revisionism at its best. Only Ali had balls? All Liston's other opponents didn't? Liston was beaten twice by the greatest heavyweight of all time, maybe the greatest fighter. And this should be viewed as a huge mark against him?

 

Going up against a man like Cleveland Williams? That’s like stepping into a knife fight. One slip, one blink, and you're out cold. Curtain dropped. Liston had guts, no doubt. So did Williams. Both fighters knew the score.

 

Williams was highly overrated- when Big Cat was 35-1-1 he was KO'd in 3 rds. by 5"10 180lb Bob Satterfield and reports say Big Cat was unconscious for several minutes - Big Cat did give Sonny a fight but too overate Big Cat is indeed revisionism.

 

Fighting Cleveland Williams was like a knife fight he was dangerous I saw a lot of him he was a serious man and you might just be young

 

So young that I watched both fights and Sonny was Champ when I old enough to watch boxing - I know why Williams is overrated but tell me what Big Cat wins should change my mind.

 

Rocky would’ve worn liston’s ass down. No doubt about it. I do think sonny’s jab and power would’ve gave Rock a really tough scrap. But Rocky being Rocky… would’ve weathered the storm, maybe gotten up off the deck once or twice… and landed that right hand as many times as needed to drop liston as many times as needed.

Would’ve been a classic

 

Just for greater context, Williams was on the verge of turning just 21 yo when he faced Satterfield.

He also weighed barely over the current CW limit. Satterfield, even at 180 lbs,was well acknowledged banger.

For the Liston fights, Williams was that much more experienced and that much bigger, weighing around 210 lbs and 215 lbs for the first and second Liston fights respectively - still looking absolute shredded - so he must’ve appeared relatively thin (underweight?) for the Satterfield fight.

We know that at just 21 yo, Ali almost had his own apple cart tipped over by a 180 lb odd Henry Cooper.

By the time Ali climbed into the ring vs Liston, he was that much more filled out and a different fighter again.

Where I think Williams is somewhat underrated is in regards to his chin. The KO loss to Satts came when Williams was very young, relatively green and not fully physically developed.

No KO losses thereafter until he ran into Liston - who was knocking guys dead left right and centre anyway.

Also, after the Liston fights, no KO losses through to Williams’ gun shot wound and after that fact, no KO losses until Cleve ran into the very best Ali in ‘66.

Aged and physically impaired, Williams then incurred some KO losses here and there - but he still displayed more than admirable durability at age 38 against Chuvalo to see it out 10 very rough rounds - and he still hurt and busted up the Canadian Iron Man pretty good along the way.

 

Williams was known as a puncher, but his power really did not show up in the ring, He was 35-1-1 when he fought Satterfield who was 6 inches shorter and outweighed by over 30 lbs. so I would not call him inexperienced. Bob Satterfield also KO'd 6"2 Bob Baker in 1 round and dominated 6"3 Nino Valdes who he dropped for a 9 count in 1955, he also KO'd Frankie Daniels while losing to the smaller better skilled fighters like Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles and Harold Johnson.

Big Cat was a decent fighter, but the legend is larger than the man IMO

 

Williams was a physical talent who lacked good training. When other fighters were learning to box in the amateurs and training in NYC, or Philly, CW was "fighting" in small towns in Georgia against other mostly untrained "boxers." There was a discussion on this board about who would win between Patterson and Williams. Reverse their training, put CW in NYC with a good trainer, and give him a good amateur background, and put FP in the Ga. small towns just "fighting", not learning how to box and there would be no discussion. CW would be much better than he was and FP would be much worse than he was. CW, with good fundamentals and training might be the best heavyweight of his era.

 

Thats a possibility, Cus Damato did wonders for Floyd as he did with Jose Torres and others including Mike Tyson, who he molded.

As they say would have - could have - should have - or if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. I understand your point though.

I think the reason Big Cat is elevated is to make him the monster that make Liston and Ali's victories larger and that's common in boxing.

Cus would have made Big Cat better IMO and Floyd Cus-less would have been worse but Louis without Jack Blackburn, Marciano without Charley Goldman and Ali without Angelo Dundee or Lennox without Lewis would have changed the course of history for those men IMO

 

I don't think Angelo was a hands on manager. Ali was trained by Archie Moore before this. Archie said he wish he had more time with Ali to teach him how to take a man out with 1 punch. They both have a story about running/jogging with each other, Archie simply said he was amazed how young Clay sprinted away from him into the distance. However in Clay's biography he says he went off ahead and was amazed when old Archie had caught him up further down the road.

Archie kicked Clay out of camp because he wouldn't do any dish washing.

 

Thanks for your reply.

I have to correct myself - I said Satts weighed 180 lb vs Williams but boxrec records him as having weighed 176 1/2 lbs against Williams 201 1/2 lbs.

So a 25 lb weight pull - though not over 30 lbs.

EDIT: Ah, you said 180 lbs for Satts and I just followed your lead - no biggie, lol.

But that tells me you might’ve been assuming that Williams was already fighting at 210 lbs + as at 1954 - but he was actually just 201 1/2 lbs himself vs Satts.

Worthy to note also that Williams was a late sub for the fight.

Number of fights under the belt might count for something in due measure but the quality of the opposition therein counts for a lot more in terms of accrued experience and practical ongoing development.

At the least I would say it’s fair to conclude that a properly prepared Williams, some 5 - 6 years down the track, aged 26/27 yo and about 10 - 15 pounds heavier, fully filled out, was a much improved and far more formidable fighter than the one Satterfield faced, just imo.

 

Just another example why "Smokin Joe" is my all-time favorite fighter! His heart and integrity were NEVER in question!! A true straight shooting no BS man's man!!

 

I think Cus actually crippled both Torres and Patterson by forcing his style on them… probably certain things Willaims figured out with experience that he could do better than Cus could reach lol. @Pat M I can imagine Williams getting on famously with say Emmanuel Steward and Bill Miller, Miller and Steward both encouraged aggressive fighters - Steward loved a tall fighter, Miller just loved fighters who fought period and Williams was a very confident fighter - honestly, despite my reservations about the D’mato program he’d have made Williams better, pretty much anybody who knew there stuff would - Harry Wiley would do wonders.