Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

I used to watch Williams on TV on the US Saturday Night Fights.
Why couldnt Williams add 20 lbs to his torso ,please explain?

 

Yes it is ,it isn't a Liston v Marciano comparison,though some seem determined to make it so.Anyway I'm out, have fun folks.

 

Yeah but Marciano's competition gets lambasted all the time because his best wins were under 200 pounds. When in reality, they were around the same size as Liston’s best opponents give or take. Liston nor Marciano ever beat anything close to a 6'6 240 pound behemoth like Anthony Joshua, but people will say Marciano stands no chance against AJ because his best opponents were under 200 pounds and he is completely untested against an elite opponent that size but will then say Liston stops AJ when the same criticisms can apply to Liston. His best wins were men under 200 pounds, none as large and strong as AJ, none of the men over 200 pounds he beat had anything close to the skill level of an AJ and Liston is completely untested against a skilled 6'6 240 pound heavyweight that can punch.

 

Yeah but in those days, it was common for top heavyweight contenders to be 185-200 pounds. So it's wasn't far fetched that a 180 pound light heavyweight, especially a light heavyweight champion, could move up and beat a top heavyweight contender and go back to 175. The gap in size is too much nowadays. However, if the top heavies were still 185-200 pounds, I could definitely see a Bivol, Beterbiev or Ward moving to heavyweight and being pretty good.

 

You think Cleveland Williams can pack on 20lbs of muscle naturally? NOPE No he could not lol at around 240bs he'd be as dwarfing some versions of Arnold he’d way bigger then Arnold in "Stay Hungry" where AS was 210lbs 6ft thereabouts - A guy off season with Olympia Genes and a lowered dose of juice... in Conan he was around 220lbs at a similar BF % Williams is already sus and adding 20lbs of muscle is never happening.

 

No, it's not. But it is partially a Liston's diminutive opponents vs today's massive modern heavies thread.

Peace.

 

I'm not saying he couldn't--just that he would be effective stepping into the ring against guys that are taller and heavier than that.

 

B-b-but they all sucked so they don't count.....

 

Just an observation here.....Moore was 188 pounds when Marciano defeated him, by the standards of 1955, he was a heavyweight. However, that doesn't stop people from calling him a blown up light heavyweight. So if he was a blown up light heavyweight when he fought Rocky Marciano, he was a blown up light heavyweight when he beat the above named men. If he was a heavyweight when he beat the above named men, then he was a heavyweight when Marciano beat him.

Heavyweight, blown up light heavyweight, I'm just asking for consistency.

 

Let's make this real obvious.

Here is Liston's consensus top ten wins, according to the community:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/sonny-listons-top-ten-wins.731765/
Patterson- 6'0", 189
Patterson- 6'0", 194
Foley- 6'1",198.5,
Machen- 6'0", 196,
Williams- 6'2", 215.5
Willlams- 6'2", 210,
Valdez- 6'3", 211,
Harris- 6'0", 195,
Clark- 6'3", 215
DeJohn- 6'2.5", 202

Here are Ring Magazine current top Ten heavies...

Usyk- 6'3", 226
Fury- 6'9", 281
Dubois- 6'5", 248
Parker- 6'4", 267
Kabayel- 6'3", 241
Joshua- 6'6", 252
Hrgovic- 6'6"- 250
Wardly- 6'5", 243
Zhang- 6'6", 287
Bakole- 6'6", 299

This is not hard to understand. It is not controversial. It is not refutable. IF SIZE IS A FACTOR, LISTON'S COMPETITION SUFFERS.

Think of some of the absurd mental gymnastics we have heard, here...

1. Guys like Chuck Wepner and Gerhard Zeck help to show that Liston could have handled modern heavies (can we site someone of quality, here...nope!).

2. A modern heavy is anything 200 pounds or over (it literally isn't in two federations, and Liston's four best wouldn't qualify).

3. It doesn't matter because Sonny hit like a truck (and Marciano didn't?).

4. Cleveland Williams could have put on weight (he'd still be 6'2", right? And he was 210-215 when he fought Liston, so...).

Enough is enough. Time for some of you guys to look in the mirror. Does absolute size matter, or do we judge fighters by THE STANDARDS OF THEIR OWN TIME?

 

I'm of the school of thought that we have to take fighters as they actually existed, not how they could be. One could say that if Marciano were fighting today, he'd be a 215-220 pound Mike Tyson like fighter, except with a much higher work rate.

Or that Floyd Patterson would be fighting as a super middleweight/light heavyweight as with same day weigh ins, he was 182 when he won the title, so with day before weigh ins, he could easily have made 168 pounds. He was 190 pounds when he regained the title, so with day before weigh ins, it's not unreasonable to see him making 175 pounds. But taking him as he was, he was a 190 pound heavyweight in the ring.

 

I agree with this 100 percent. That said, one cannot say that Moore was a blown up light heavyweight when Marciano beat him, but suddenly he becomes a "real heavyweight" when he beat Liston’s victims or people who beat Liston’s victims. If Moore was a blown up light heavyweight when he was stopped by Marciano, if he was a blown up light heavyweight when he dropped Marciano then he was always a blown up light heavyweight. Even when he was beating younger versions of men Liston would later beat or when he was beating men who beat Liston’s opponents.

But if Moore was always a real heavyweight, he is still a real heavyweight when he fought Marciano (unless he came in the ring at 175 or less). Same goes for Ezzard Charles.

 

If he roids up (provided he isn’t already on them) it was the 60s not the 30s lol I don’t see why he couldn’t push himself up 20lbs a solid mix of fat, water, muscle etc.

 

This and other posts in this thread are really spot on L, Liston was absolutely always dwarfing his best opponents. Machen, Folley, Patterson are his top 3 wins… he was always in the territory of 15-20lbs higher then them, as you point out Harold Johnson beat Machen lol whilst Machen was still using his right hand (he was injured for Liston) Williams wasn’t overly good but he almost had Liston out of there according to SL and he was the only viable guy he fought to match him physically - if he could box better and take it better… Valdez is deflection, don’t bother with that rabbit hole everybody else knows he was shot and only ever decent lol.

 

I did some research one Cleveland Williams I would like to share. Here are the ever rated by the NBA fighters Williams fought with the date and the result:

5-12-1953 Omelio Agramonte--UD--unrated
10-15-1957 John Holman--KO 7--unrated
12-3-1957 Frankie Daniels--UD--unrated
3-25-1958 Dick Richardson--WDQ 4--unrated
8-3-1958 Frankie Daniels--UD--unrated
2-7-1961 Wayne Bethea--UD--unrated
5-15-1961 Alex Miteff--KO 5--#9 heavyweight
4-3-1962 Ernie Terrell--KO 7--unrated
5-15-1962 Alonzo Johnson--KO 1--unrated
7-10-1962 Eddie Machen--Draw--#2 heavyweight
3-9-1963 Billy Daniels--UD--#6 heavyweight
4-2-1963 Young Jack Johnson--KO 10--unrated
10-7-1963 Roger Rischer--KO 3--unrated
9-30-1964 Billy Daniels--UD--#8 heavyweight
6-11-1972 Terry Daniels--UD--unrated

Frankie Daniels rating was at light-heavyweight. So Williams defeated 12 ever rated fighters and drew with 1. He had 3 wins over 2 fighters rated when he fought them.

*my take--not awful, but nothing to get excited about. Two men, Holman and Terrell, were or would be, top five fighters. Holman had lost five of his last six. He retired after the Williams fight. Miteff had lost three of his last four and would drop from the rankings with the Williams loss and never return. Terrell would go on to become the #1 contender.

For me, Williams is an enigma. Why such an exciting and potential top box office fighter spent his career in the southern and Texas boondocks is a head-scratcher. His only appearance in New York was in a 4 round preliminary at the Polo Grounds on the undercard of the Marciano- LaStarza card against Sylvester Jones. He was knocked down twice and lost a four round decision. He never fought at Madison Square Garden. He never fought in the Chicago Stadium or in Chicago at all. He never fought at the Los Angeles Olympic Auditorium or in LA at all. He never fought at the Detroit Olympia. Why did he not appear at the major venues?

Williams had a strong statistical record against largely so-so opposition. He managed a draw with Machen, but was blown out by both Satterfield and Liston.

Draw your own conclusions.

*just an aside. The Ernie Terrell-Gerhard Zech fight from 1964 is currently on you tube.

**Williams had his first fight the same month Joe Louis announced his retirement as heavyweight champion. His last fight was two months before Foreman won the championship.