What Was The Most Shocking Upset?

Hard to say but I voted for 1964... Liston was a absolute legend and a very terrifying heavyweight at this moment.

 

Very hard to say, I lean towards Liston.
Ali was unknown, being dropped by cooper, and Sonny had that damn scary rep.

 

Dunno about in real time as my pops was alive during both and I wasn't.

My pops used to say Foreman but not by much.

In hindsight, the Liston was a massive shock and despite Sonny doing better than folklore suggests, he was completely outmatched on that night. Yet, he retired on his stool - no clean knock out or ref saving him from more punishment, but make no bones about it, Sonny looked broken mentally in there. Hindsight tells us he was older, hadn't done many rounds and underestimated Ali - however, if you look at his body work and the success he actually had in slipping Ali's jabs, he was demonstrably a good fighter in good shape. What he couldn't handle was the footwork, the angles and the speed of the punches in combination. Massive shock but you can rationalise it - young lion, old lion.

The Foreman fight tho - we saw a less fluid, slower, lower stamina Ali. We saw him lose to Frazier and lose to Norton and we felt for the first time since Cooper, this guy looks vulnerable. Then when you add in the destruction that Foreman put on Frazier and Norton, especially the use of his shoving and manhandling tactics and strength, young lion, old lion. You don't expect Ali to do well.

One thing my dad always used to say about this fight, everyone that mattered barring Kinshasa and Ali, himself, thought that Ali was in serious peril. We've all seen the clip of Ali admonishing the team pre-fight and defying the popular opinion. What is shocking about the fight is when you take away narrative and casual dogma, Ali whipped Foreman. Broke him down stylistically and mentally and whilst, I have my concerns about the veracity of the count and the stoppage could arguably be questioned, make no mistakes, if Foreman was allowed to continue, Ali stops him in the next round.

I go with the Foreman as the stoppage was more decisive, the schooling was more against the grain, the task was bigger and the historical significance was immense given context - old lion, young lion!

 

Given some of the quotes of the day and the genuine concern for Ali’s health I’ve always been a surprised that Foreman was only a 3-1 favourite.

Not that it’s necessarily logical because styles obviously make fights - but Foreman had obliterated the two fighters who had given Ali the most hell to date.

Despite knowing better, it would’ve still been difficult for pundits to shake off those “qualifications” going into Zaire - though, at least in hindsight, the few rounds Foreman had boxed over the previous few years going into Zaire might’ve been noted and duly factored in -

Coincidentally (or not so when considering KO artists who often enjoy brief fights), Liston also had less than ideal rounds under his belt going into the Miami fight - and he clearly didn’t pull up the slack in training, coming in at a career heavy 218 lbs, obviously believing that he was only going to have box 4 rounds or so before seeing Ali off.

However, it seems there were still quite a few pundits who felt Ali could (would?) win against Foreman - so maybe that tempered the odds a bit. I dunno.

Notably, for one, Ken Norton picked Ali by decision “easily”.

To qualify himself, Ken said he saw plenty of openings vs George but was simply “too tight” to take full advantage of same.

Ken knew that Ali would not be similarly afflicted by nerves.

Quite a straight shooting appraisal imo and not entirely without it being at Ken’s own expense.

Against Foreman, Norton was boxing quite handily and doing relatively well until George made his first real, flush connection part way into round 2 that saw Ken start on his one way slippery slope.

On the other hand, re Miami, while some might’ve given Ali a chance against Liston, they were very small in number.

The alternate picks, with very solid conviction behind them, had Ali being sorted out by Liston in short order.

Some picks might’ve had some personal bias woven in - invoking phrasing such as “Liston shutting Ali’s big mouth” or words to that effect, etc.

Similar phrasing was used by some of those picking Frazier to win the FOTC. Ali was polarising to say the least. Lol.

Post FOTC, we all know that Ali garnered so much more respect across the board - so he at least had the gutsy performance in FOTC under his belt before Zaire - something he didn’t have pre Miami before facing Liston -

But having beaten such long odds against Liston in the first place possibly saw some fans hold reserve that Ali was somewhat of “miracle” man going into Zaire - the exact means to victory not easily calculated but if anyone could do it - then Ali was most likely the man to do it.

Ultimately, Ali already had the shock victories in Miami and Zaire under his belt going into the Holmes fight - and sadly that led some to be absolutely sold on Ali’s ability to perform “miracles” - even though it went against all conventional thinking otherwise.

 

Both were massive upsets; but I pick ROTJ by the sheer surrounding drama and because a faded Ali was expected to be wasted by Foreman, an aggressive brutal puncher who had just easily mauled Frazier and Norton and looked unstoppable.

 

I'll go Ali vs Liston because Ali prior to that fight had been dropped heavily by Cooper.

Would anyone on this boxing forum now pick Ali to beat Liston based off the Cooper fight ? Especially since Liston was coming off back to back 1 round KOs over Patterson ?

 

Both sizeable upsets and probably Muhammad's two greatest victories. The Liston fight was the bigger upset as far as the bookies were concerned. Muhammad was very much a "live dog" for Foreman so I would say the earlier bout. The young Cassius Clay was given virtually no chance but a few pundits predicted that Muhammad would upset George. Ken Norton was one and Colin Hart (Sun reporter) another. Even one or two of Boxing News staff did too if memory serves me well. The Kinshasa battle was arguably Muhammad's greatest victory but not the greatest upset.

 

Foreman-Ali, in that Muhammad was seen as past his prime, going in against a monster who destroyed Ali's two toughest opponents - men he'd fought over 51 hard rounds to a 2/2 record of decision wins/losses - in less than four rounds. There was genuine fear that Ali would get seriously mauled or worse - there was a rumor, unsubstantiated, that someone had slipped the ref a few bucks to intervene in case Ali was getting beaten. The fact he was regaining his title after winning it ten years earlier gave it an aura of the King reclaiming his throne.

Liston-Clay: Sonny was as feared as Foreman, but odds notwithstanding, a young boxer in his athletic prime had a chance -

 

I second that.

 

Lets also add that Liston was kinda subpar versus Ali; who was never in serious risk.

But Foreman came with all guns blazing and Ali actually had to fight for his life, and for a while it looked like he was being blasted.

Thus it is ROTJ for me.

 

ROTJ not RITJ?

Unless I’m a victim of The Mandela Effect, perhaps you’re thinking along the lines of George of the Jungle (GOTJ)?

As luck would have it, we did have a George in the “Jungle” but unfortunately for him, there was an Ali there also.

“Watch out for that Ali…!”

 

That’s a total misrepresentation of the fight, Ali was shell shocking and clinch crushing Foreman all night, In round one Foreman landed like 6? Total punches outside the clinch or something like that.

 

The Liston fight, Ali was unproven at that point, people didn’t know what he was capable of.