Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

He was the national heavyweight champion of Germany

 

Oh dear, i read Ingemar Johansson recall that he fired Westphal as a sparring partner for being so inept

 

Westphal 24-8-3 had beaten
Neuhaus
Ritter
Hecht
Kalfbell
And drawn with Slade his final record is 41-14-6 certainly no world beater but a half decent Euro level fighter.
Some context to the Westphal fight with Sonny.
The object of putting him on with Sonny was to show case Liston on a double header tv special with Patterson defending his title against Tom McNeeley, their next fights to be against each other for Floyds title.This was Liston's 32nd fight his previous 5 were against;
Howard King.
Eddie Machen
Zora Folley
Roy Harris
Cleveland Williams
I could easily provide a comparison with a previous heavyweights respective
32nd
31st
30th
29th
28th
27th
Fights ,which would not be at all flattering to the previous heavyweight, but I shall refrain from doing so.,there is enough strife going on in the world as it is!

 

Williams resume is thin to say the least.. his mystique comes from his perceived status as a rival to Liston. He defeated exactly ONE top 10 opponent in his near 100 fight career.. Terrell.. who he went 1-1 with..

Leading up to the Liston fights his best opponent was Bob Satterfield who a few month's earlier was thrashed in 2 by Ezzard Charles.. Satterfield laid Williams out in 3.. despite being 25lbs lighter.. Am i meant to be impressed?

Like Liston Williams is overrated too... big punching 200lb peer? He could not KO Keene Simmons who the smaller Marciano KO'd in 8 a year earlier... nearly 100 fights & you can't reel off a list of names he KOd.. because he didn't.. 90% of his opposition was poor.. & almost every time he fought someone decent he lost. He was a built up fighter for those times..

Beating Williams isn't on a par with beating ATGs Moore, Walcott & Charles.

Patterson was a great but chinny fighter.. perfect for the heavy handed Liston who had 20/25lbs on him. In fact he was basically a SMW early in his career ..
So i temper those 2 wins somewhat.

 

He was extremely green against Satterfield who himself acknowledged that and rated Williams as a potential future champion which he very well may've been with better management/trainers and had he not shared an era with Liston or Ali.

 

Marciano did not ko Simmons,he never even floored him,the ref stopped the fight with Simmons on his feet.
Williams floored Simmons.

 

This is not good.

 

I agree that Williams was not very good in the grand scheme of things.

But he was (1) a contender, (2) a puncher, (3) big. That combination wasn't very common in those days, so one takes what one can get. Although you're critical of Williams, I don't think you're going so far as to say Williams was unworthy of being a contender, or that he didn't punch hard, or that he was under 200. And that's the combination that Rocky didn't deal with. Again, despite Williams not being comparable to somebody like Tua or Cooney.

 

He annihilated the first two-time heavyweight champion. Twice.

 

Joe Louis is Godly - randomly to me both Baer brothers are actually good wins? I’m not sure why they’re counted as “non proof” for how he’d do against bigger guys - Carnera I get but the Baers? Both had good chins and were serious punchers… Buddy was 6ft6 or 6ft5 and 237-250lbs both guys were only ever properly stopped by Louis.

 

At least Westphal actually got in there and fought Liston - Ingo himself was never ever going to do that.

There were some who felt that Ingo wasn’t too bright - I dunno about that, - but he was bright enough to steer clear of engaging Liston in the ring - rather, he made friends with Sonny and promoted him later in the piece. So, not as dim as he sim.

 

Agreed. He has more than a single win over rated opposition unlike both men you mentioned. Excellent point!

 

Mike Tyson beat Frank Bruno

 

Would be interesting if Williams came along in the early 1950s and gotten a fight with Marciano. There was talks about Earl Walls, the Canadian heavyweight champion, getting a fight with Marciano. Walls was a good puncher, 6'2 and about 205 pounds.

 

Williams floored past-prime Simmons and still won only by UD, while Marciano stopped prime Simmons, who would later claim that Rocky hit him harder than anyone.