Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Wrong. Henri was a seasoned professional coming off two solid wins and was the betting favourite when he stepped in against the raw, 19 year old Williams.

https://ibb.co/N2d1fz0K

Actually according to Al Weill Daniels was fired as Marciano's sparring partner for being "too rough for Rocky".

https://ibb.co/gbLkmBFz

 

Lastarza isn't being touted as a thunderous punching HW monster like Williams tho is he?

& Lastarza was also about 190lbs for those 2 fights... Williams was 205.. big difference..

& Simmons was massively overweight & out of shape in the Williams fight too , weighing 220lbs.. a far cry from the rocky & Lastarza fights when he weighed 200lbs

So Williams couldn't even KO a marshmallow version. Or how do you call them? 'Obese'.. thats how you referred to Cockell the other day wasn't it, so what does that make Simmons eh eh?

 

Walls had been stopped by.
Calcinore 2rds
Beranardo 4rds
Brion1 rd
Dominic 2rds
Before he fought Marciano.
I think most objective posters would agree Williams losing to Ali and Foster at that stage if his career is forgiveable.

The Cleroux fight?
"Bob Cleroux, 30 year old former Canadian heavyweight champ, scored a unanimous decision over Cleveland Williams in a 10 round heavyweight fight Thursday night. But his puffed up face indicated he was anything but a winner. Cleroux had four or five visible marks on his face as a result of his match against the giant Texan. His eyes were half-closed and his cheeks were puffed. On the other side of the Montreal Forum, Williams looked more like the winner than the loser. Cleroux had control of the fight in the early going but a hard left from Williams late in the 4th opened a cut over Cleroux's eye and it seemed to take the edge away from the Montrealer. Cleroux almost sent Williams to the canvas with a hard left in the 5th but appeared to lose some strength in the 6th and 7th. Cleroux improved in the 8th, however, after he was warned by referee Baillargeon for butting Williams." -Associated Press


So weight is only significant when its Williams or Liston who has the advantage? Is that how it works?

 

A seasoned professional .. i am crying .. your definition of a seasoned professional for Williams is a 16-23-1 (at the time of the fight) 190lber? That's the standards you hold Williams to? Did you know in the same year that Williams beat him he was also KOd in 2 by 177lb Julian Keene .. & prior to that Marciano opponent kid Matthews had taken care of him in 2 also.. he beat 2 opponents? Two solid wins? Who? 179lb Lalu Sabotin who never got a decent win his entire career & 182lb Art Swiden who had by that point beat 9 debutees & had took 8 losses against his non debutants & 2 draws? That's solid is it? LMAO..

Oh no look a newspaper article sparring story claiming perennial loser Frankie Daniel's 38-35-6 was too rough for Rocky in sparring.. it must mean he had Rocky's number then & would have been too much for him

 

Your claim that "he was supposed to blitz them.. they were put in there to take out.." has been proved wrong. Deal with it.

 

Garner and Agramonte are two of the twelve ever rated fighters Williams fought. As with almost all the others, they were fringe at best and their best was not when they faced Williams.

Certainly 38 fights is experienced. The issue is whom had he fought? Satterfield had been matched tough since the get go. In his 5th fight Satterfield faced Johnny Vorce (28-15-1) and in his 8th Curley Denton (52-40-14). He faced his first ever rated opponent in his 11th fight--Bob Garner (31-9-4). He fought Holman Williams in his 15th fight. Jack LaMotta in his 17th.

So Satterfield was thrown to the sharks right off. He was fighting guys like Archie Moore long before his 39th fight.

Whose fault is it that Williams faced set up opposition and so hardly progressed? His management? Perhaps. But we have to deal with the Williams of history and so end up with a fighter whose only rated opponents beaten were Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff.

Williams highest rated opponent beaten was Billy Daniels in 1963. Daniels' record was 18-1. The irony is Daniels had fought half as many fights as the "green" Williams had before Satterfield. Going into their second fight Daniels had 25 fights. Even Miteff only had 32.

The real problem is Williams had not fought and beaten top opposition. And mostly he never would. He failed against Satterfield, Liston twice, Terrell in theiir rematch once Ernie had made the ratings, and after the shooting, he failed against Ali, Cleroux, Foster, and Chuvalo.

There are reasons for the failures. Some valid. He survived a terrible shooting. He was certainly a decent heavyweight. He was consistent against second-tier competition. But for whatever reason never got over the hump into proving himself top class with signature wins.

 

So Daniels was massively overweight for all his 39 heavyweight fights?

We can see Cockell was obese where can we see Simmons wasa t 220lbs v Williams? You've just looked at Box rec and made that assumption. Here is Simmons against Norkus
Charley Norkus vs. Keene Simmons HL Reel Simmons weighs 208lbs here

 

Cockell was overweight and flabby. But what is the point with Simmons? In shape or not, he was not a winning fighter.

Lots of out of shape or "obese" fighters have done well. The obese Willie Meehan beat a prime Dempsey. The obese Tony Galento knocked down Joe Louis. The obese Andy Ruiz KO'd body beautiful Anthony Joshua to win the heavyweight title.

Some guys can carry extra weight and fight well. Lots of Mr. Universe types with their rippling muscles are mediocre or worse fighters.

 

Why is this aimed at me.I didnt say Daniels was massively overweight and out of shape?
Did I ever suggest Daniels was anything but a journeyman?
I called him a fulltime sparring partner 2 days ago.

Cockell was 30lbs over his optimum weight, he was obese, do you dispute this and the film of the fight?

Dempsey lost to Meehan in1917, I don't consider that his prime, and I seriously doubt any boxing scholar would.
Do you think the rest of your post is informing me of something I am not already aware of?

 

My comment was entirely on the comparison of Simmons to Cockell. I wasn't referring to Daniels at all.

"Cockell was 30 lbs. over his optimum weight"

I wouldn't know that. He apparently felt making 175 weakened him and so went to heavyweight. What was his optimum weight in 1955. My guess is it was something like 185 to 190, so his was carrying 15 to 20 lbs. extra.

But the main point was this doesn't mean a guy can't fight, especially if he is skilled. Moore is another who fought much above 175 while he was light-heavy champ. Even over 200. And he still won.

"Dempsey lost to Meehan in 1917"

Yes, and he also lost to Meehan in San Francisco on September 13, 1918. This loss came almost exactly between Dempsey's KO of Fred Fulton on July 27, 1918 and his KO of Battling Levinsky on November 6, 1918. I stand by Dempsey was prime.

*by the way. My original post was not "aimed" at anyone. I just wanted to make the point that being overweight doesn't in and of ifself prove a guy can't fight.

 

The issue here, is you're painting a partisan narrative. Wins over the shells of Garner and Agramonte prove Williams wasn't green, yet Williams' win over Holman who had much more life in him than the aforementioned two should be dismissed?

"Certainly 38 fights is experienced. The issue is whom had he fought?

"The irony is Daniels had fought half as many fights as the "green" Williams had before Satterfield. Going into their second fight Daniels had 25 fights. Even Miteff only had 32."
Not sure why you're ignoring the fact that Williams had no amateur career to speak of. The majority of those 38 fights WERE his amateur career.

Also the first 10 bouts of his career were 6 rounders at most, and he hadn't even gone 8 rounds until his 20th fight.

You're premise that Daniels and Miteff were more inexperienced than Williams is incorrect.

"He served in the U.S. Airforce from 1956-1960, and fought on the US Airforce Boxing Team. In 1956, he won the Bratanica Shield 175lbs. Title. A year later he captured the 12th Airforce, USAEF, and Bratanica Shield Lightheavyweight Titles.
Daniels was trained by future world lightheavyweight champion Bob Foster while in the Airforce. In 1958, Daniels won the 12th Airforce, USAEF, Bratanica Shield, All-Air Force, and CISM Championships.

Upon his discharge in 1960, Daniels won the New York Golden Gloves Heavyweight Title. He retired from amateur boxing with a record of 45-5."
Source: Boxrec
Daniels before he even turned pro, was more experienced than Williams of the Satterfield bout.

Daniels had also made the top ten rankings two years (and stayed there) before he fought Williams, while Williams wouldn't find a rating for another half decade following the Satterfield bout.

As for Miteff, I can't find much for his amateur career. Will have to look through newspaper archives later as I've only found 2 fights. But Miteff had 201 rounds under his belt by the time he fought Williams. Williams had 144 when he fought Satterfield. And that’s ignoring Miteff's amateur career.

I've no issue with a respectful debate but let's please keep it grounded in intellectual honesty.

"There are reasons for the failures. Some valid. He survived a terrible shooting. He was certainly a decent heavyweight. He was consistent against second-tier competition. But for whatever reason never got over the hump into proving himself top class with signature wins."
Yes he had a string of bad luck. Benbow and Viscusi both complained of their inability to make fights with name fighters. They went as high as $50,000 for Doug Jones and were rebuffed for example.

Williams was also injured when he fought Terrell in the rematch and the bout was in grave danger of being cancelled.

"I hurt my hands on Billy Daniels on March 9. A couple of weeks later I banged them up on Young Jack Johnson. I couldn't throw a punch without a stabbing pain going through my arm. But the promoter had set up this return match. We didn't want to let him down. It was a mistake. Even so, I thought I licked him, but it was in Philadelphia, his home town and he got a hometown decision."

Source:: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99985978/the-los-angeles-times/

• Williams scheduled bout on April 13th with Ernie Terrell was placed in jeopardy due to Williams' injuring both hands during the bout. But the Terrell-Williams bout took place as planned. Source: https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Cleveland_Williams_vs._Young_Jack_Johnson

"But but but, those are clearly sour grapes. Why is he only making these excuses AFTER the fight? He's pulling a Machen!"

Their was also talk about this immediately after the Johnson bout before he faced Terrell so it can't be dismissed as a post-loss excuse.

"Heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams scored a costly TKO over Young Jack Johnson Tuesday night in the final round of a scheduled 10-rounder. Williams signed for a television bout against Ernie Terrell April 13, injured both hands in the wild brawl with Johnson." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99984956/des-moines-tribune/

Despite all this, Williams took Terrell to the limit, dropped a questionable thin as you can get split decision (and Terrell in that third round imo) that one judge and the associated press for Terrell's resident state scored for Williams, who had Terrell holding on for dear life at the end of the bout, and ready to go.

There’s no doubt Williams’ injuries held him back against Terrell. He couldn’t sustain his usual aggression and was forced to fight in bursts, relying more on his boxing skills—which, to his credit, were solid. But had he been able to press the action consistently, the outcome might have looked very different.

In the originally scheduled WBA title fight with Terrell—before Williams was shot—Williams likely would have come out on top. Even against a diminished version of Williams, Terrell was visibly spent and done. In that condition, he almost certainly would not have made the 15 rounds required in a championship bout. Hell I doubt he would've gone 12.

If Williams had won, he'd have been WBA champion and likely picked up some defenses against the likes of Chuvalo and Jones, which would put his resume in a very different light. You keep saying Williams never proved himself among the top—well, he never got the chance to.

Even so, he was the best of the rest along with Machen, and Terrell as he proved going 1-1-1 with them (I’d argue 2-0-1).

The picture you're trying to paint of Williams, that he was a fringe contender simply doesn’t hold up—he was ranked No. 2 (possibly no.1) by the WBA and No. 4 by The Ring at the time he was shot.

 

YOU'RE FINDING SOME EXCELLENT STUFF SWAG! WELL DONE!

 

Cheers mate! Means a lot coming from you!

 

Well done,Swag.