Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

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”Williams was the hardest puncher I’ve fought. No one wants to fight him. He can punch as hard as I can, but he can’t take it like I can.”SONNY LISTON

 

He had a handful of fights at 14, and was subsequently suspended once his age was discovered.

Is it just "forgetfulness or willful ignorance that you failed to add that" Layne had fought quite a lot of 10 rounders and had 188 rounds (in the pros) along with a quite successful amateur record under his belt by the time he fought Satterfield?
"He did not start boxing until he joined the Army. "When they sent out a call for boxing candidates at Soporo, Japan, he won the heavyweight championship of our troops in Nippon. Returning home in 1947, he dropped a close decision in an Olympic tryout to Jay Lambert, who won the United States Olympic title, and lost a decision in the London semifinals. Last spring Layne lost a close verdict to Utah State's Dale Panter in the Utah Golden Gloves, but earned a trip to Boston acquiring the A.A.U. Intermountain amateur championship by a knockout. In the Hub he won four bouts, three by knockouts, to account for the national championship."

That's a little different than the picture you're trying to paint.

He’d lost a close and controversial split decision to a frequent top 10 contender Charles Williams and another bout to one of the greatest fighters of all time. That hardly means he was some easy mark. Losing to elite competition doesn't suddenly make a guy vulnerable to just any Tom, Dick, or Harry.

What happened the next year? He'd recorded perhaps a career best win and reentered the rankings.

King, Summerlin, and Marshall are hardly lauded as Williams best opponents. He was also KTFO by Marshall in two rounds in his prime before barely nicking a SD in a rematch, where as a green Liston avenged his loss in empathetic fashion.

As for your Marciano tangent—can you point to a single place in this thread where I “pulled him apart”? Hell, can you find a single mention of him from me that wasn’t a direct response to your comment? Or are you just building strawmen because your argument isn’t holding?

Well, for starters, he was far more experienced, actually held a ranking, and was significantly more physically developed. So yeah, pretty markedly different.

Williams only really started moving up in competition after the Liston fight.

As for your criticism of Holman. He was ranked #4 the previous year and was in the tournament for Rocky's vacated championship. Oh and he also had a win over Satterfield. Thought you'd wanna know given how obsessed you are with Satterfield's opponents other than Williams.

Would explain why he tried to get fights with other contenders like Doug Jones, and was rebuffed. Would also explain why they ran away from Machen, the no. 2 contender..... Oh wait.

This makes no sense. That Williams fought green or limited opponents doesn’t negate the fact that he himself was green when he fought Satterfield years earlier. What point are you trying to make?

No one’s “clinging” to anything here. We're just correcting the stream of half-truths, omissions, and overblown conclusions being passed off as analysis. If that shatters anything, it’s not Liston’s mystique—it’s the credibility of these arguments.

On another note, are you genuinely incapable of debating without defaulting to playground-level insults?

 

Fair enough, my apologies. I brought up the intellectual honesty part because I'd already informed you, Williams' number of fights was misleading when you take into context, his number of rounds, and absences of amateur career.

"The picture you are trying to paint of Williams, that he was a fringe contender, simply doesn't hold up."

He was absolutely a top contender of his era. Not a champion, like Patterson (though he may well have beaten him), Liston, and Ali, but rather the best of the rest along with Machen, and Terrell.

Before the first fight with Williams, Daniels was undefeated barring a loss to the G.O.A.T. Hardly any shame there. In the second fight, Daniels as a last second substitute had just upset the number 1 contender Doug Jones. Even in their first bout, many thought Jones "win" was a robbery. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-record/100456875/

This is misleading because Daniels only declined after the Williams fights.

"The big cat is credited with breaking one man's back with a blow to the midsection, punishing Billy Daniels so badly that Daniels has never been the same fighter since, and hitting young Jack Johnson so hard that a blood vessel ruptured in Johnson's forehead." https://www.newspapers.com/article/carlsbad-current-argus/54075292/

"Billy Daniels didn't decide to become a barber until one night Cleveland Williams hung a right cross to his jaw. Like Tom Dewey [Please tell me you of all people understand this reference re '48. It's ****ing Gold] he knew right then and there he needed a sideline" https://www.newspapers.com/article/honolulu-star-bulletin/122049956/

Fair enough. He was only 25 when he fought Williams and coming off a very disputed split decision loss against Chuvalo in the latter's hometown where he'd lost by half a point, and all but knocked out Henry Cooper three bouts prior when he knocked him down and the ref stated (similar to Ingo-London) had the fight been any longer, he wouldn't have let Cooper continue.

As I stated in my reply to Lonsdale, Holman was just number 4 the year prior and in the tournament for Marciano's championship. Yes he was on a losing streak but all his losses were to capable fighters all rated in the top ten. He very nearly had Miteff out as well, so it's not like ha had nothing left in the tank.

Again, my argument is, he didn't have the luxury of continuing to get those wins because he was shot at the most likely point where he would've retrieved those wins with a win against Terrell for the W.B.A championship and defenses against the likes of Chuvalo, Daniels, and Machen (Machen was never the same upon his return from the Looney bin, and only managed a draw against Williams at his absolute best- a majority draw actually where the third judge had Williams as the clear winner. Williams would be a clear favorite against a declined Machen). I'd add Patterson to his list of defenses but Patterson twice turned down fights with Williams despite being offered the larger of the purses during the second offer. I'm not sure if Williams actually would've won but Patterson didn't seem to keen to test it out.

"So it boils down to a somewhat green Terrell, who was not yet rated, and whom Williams lost a rematch to."

Also, with all due respect, I’m curious—why is Terrell often given the benefit of the doubt for being “green,” while Williams isn’t? In nearly every measure except the sheer number of pro fights, Williams was actually less experienced. Terrell had a solid amateur background, had already logged 160 professional rounds, and was 23 years old—three years older than Williams when he lost to Satterfield.

I’d love to continue the discussion, but I finally found a job as a software engineer after graduating college and I’m currently in training—so my time’s a bit limited at the moment.

I appreciate that you're open to re-evaluating your perspective and engaging in a respectful way without ad hominem attacks—unlike Lonsdale. I look forward to continuing our discussion when I have the time.

 

The thing I like about this is you spent two days contemplating your response and the best you could come up with was "LIES! LIES! IT'S ALL LIES!"

Williams was 19 years old, in his first year as a professional (apart from a handful of 4-rounders when he was 15/16) and largely untested. It's just not that shocking that he was the underdog against his vastly more experienced opponent.

And no, no one's saying Henri was anything special. His name only came up because it happens to be true that he gave Marciano more trouble than he did Williams. Does that make the 19 year old Williams better than Marciano? Of course not, it just highlights the absurdity of trying to make the argument that Williams was not a quality opponent for Liston because years earlier he'd gone the distance with Keene Simmons.

 

My favorite part was his response when you disproved his claim that Williams was supposed to breeze through his opponents. Suddenly, he acted like you were saying Henri was some undefeated legend or Hall of Famer, and he started attacking the quality of Henri’s opponents as if that somehow invalidated your point. Classic strawman.

It’s a textbook example of shifting the goalposts—making up a new argument to knock down because he couldn’t challenge the actual facts.

 

Still waiting for you to provide any evidence that I claimed to wrote these quotes/posts that I copy- pasted, and still waiting you to find evidence that I copy-pasted or stole my last post which is the one I wrote and I claim is mine.

Btw, is there any HOF that Williams beat except draw with Machen and win over Terrel even tho he lost his next fight against him?


Lets see other HW contenders who had better record and still this forum hype Williams more just because he fought Liston, and Liston fans want to make their hero looks good and that he fought someone good but lets see about other HW contenders best wins:

Ron Lyle- beat Bugner, Shavers, Ellis, Bonavena and Buster Mathis

Earnie Shavers- Norton, Bugner, Ellis and Young

Cooney-Norton, Lyle and Young

Razor Ruddock: Page, Dokes and James Bonecrusher Smith


Those guys had better record and beat more HOF than Williams whom best wins are again draw with Machen and win over Terrel who avenged his loss in their next fight.

Did any of guys I mentioned lost in their 30+ professional fight against LHW joruneyman with questionable chin that was 25 pound lighter than them, was shorter 3 inches than them and had 7 inches shorter reach than them.

And don't pull some rated bums like Mittef and Dnaiels, those are not worth mentioning, I just want to se HOFs Williams beat if you can provide any.


I compared Williams with similar contenders who had good punches, but they lacked something to make them champions, just to see how overrated Cleveland Williams is.

 

You literally said this -

BoxingFan2002 said: ↑
Where did I copy and paste anything?

Find me anything I mentioned that was copied and pasted, if you can, but you can not, since this is my real opinion.

It's time to rack the cue.

 

The man claimed I stole other people's posts, but I never claimed I wrote anything myself, except my last post, where he accused me again.

I would like any of you to provide a quote or post that I claimed mine again. If you cannot, then please offer something better than that, as I see a lack of arguments.

 

The only one post that I claim mine, the other ones were copy pasted from other forums, but I never claimed them to be mine.

 

That Lhvy Journeyman was the 7 th ranked LHvy in the world and you have been told this several times.
Miteff beat
Valdes
Carter
Johnson
Holman
Mederos
Besmanoff
Bethea
Drew with Chuvalo
And was ranked no8 in1960
Daniels beat
Jones
DeJohn
Alongi
And was ranked no8 in1962
It's distasteful to see them referred to as Bums by some one who would literally **** himself if he found himself in the ring with any of those names.

Can we dispense with your Anti Liston agenda,and by extension Williams one ,for one thread?

 

7th ranked LHW, but LHW as you stated, not a heavyweight and that is even worse, you just prove yourself wrong.
He can not even be a good LHW, he was just a contender for LHW title, and in HW, even worse, just a journeyman, as I stated.

So Miteff's best wins were a draw with Chuvalo, a split decision against ancient Valdes and Besmanoff, whom even 50-year-old Archie More beat?

Daniels' best win is DeJohn, who was beaten by ancient Bivins and by Chuvalo, who never knocked anyone or beat anyone good.

And just look at Daniel's record, he was not a journeyman level for God's sake.

As I stated, Williams beat nobody, and the only hype about him is because he fought your hero, Liston. if he were a Marciano opponent, everyone would try to downgrade him.

And I know that every time I say something to hurt your feelings and hurt the record of your hero, the mob on this forum rushes and attacks me.

 

Cleveland Williams was a guy who looked scary in the ring. With his villainous facial features and well-defined muscles, he looked like a world-beater. Every time he swung and missed, spectators would oooh and aaah. But the book on him was he would get discouraged when he met stiff resistance. Physically he was strong but not mentally.

 

You don't hurt my feelings I consider you one of the most stupid posters on this forum.

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I don't have heroes.

 

Yes, I do; this sentence from you is already proving it.

You have to admit, I think that Liston fans exceeded Tyson fans in terms of hyping someone and finding excuses for everything he did.

 

I watched his fight with Chuvalo, very good fight, but I think that Chuvalo was a stronger man even than Williams, not a harder puncher, but a stronger man in general.

Chuvalo lacked power punching and skills; he almost finished Williams early.