Joe Louis vs David Tua

I'm not playing word games, you just can't read. This is my last post, Glass.

Holmes shouldn't have been hit like that by a guy like Shavers - the after effects of the punch are absolutely irrelevant and so is Shavers power. What is embarrassing is not being badly hurt by the hardest puncher ever, it's the whole in Holmes' game which a crude slugger took advantage of. If you still do not understand this, I'm not spelling it out again. And he improved so much he managed to lose to Mercado and Cobb

Lmao, Braddock was champ and Walcott was great - if you're gonna tell me they're just journeymen then you can talk to yourself. They both achieved more than Witherspoon and way more than Cooney. Still no mention of Snipes? No mention of Weaver? What about Williams? They puncture a hole straight in your argument.

Another instance of you not being able to read or just using your imagination. At no point have I said good balance is not apart of having good defence - I have said they are sperate things which overlap. Just as distance control is not defence, just as your footwork or positioning is not defence. They are apart of defence, yes - but they are also apart of offense, or movement.

Sorry, why on earth is Wlad relevant? Did Louis jab and grab? No. Did Louis get scared when people tried to hit him? No. Did Blackburn get angry at Louis for not wanting to engage at all? No. If you think that Wlad's title reign - who's entire style revolved around not getting knocked down (and still did over the years) is proof that Louis either has a bad chin or defence?

And the same goes for Holmes. This blanket you want to just throw over the three of them is a flawed exercise. Different fighters bro. I'm chalking Louis' flash knockdowns to a long title reign - just as I chalk Holmes' troubles down to having a long title reign. You could even put a few of Wlad's issues down to being at the top for long time, too.

I named you three. I don't care if you accept them. Anyway, I'm done debating with someone who keeps selectively ignoring things, and is so disingenuous you keep putting words in my mouth.

 

You're the one missing the point man. The answer to the knockdowns problem is simple, styles make fights and **** happens. Ali got dropped by worse fighters (Banks, Cooper and Wepner if you believe it's legit) than the ones that dropped Louis. Holmes was also dropped by an actual 188 lbs nobody with a record of 2-0 (final record of 14-8) in his career. And we both know how their chins and their defensive abilities are viewed.

Louis was already the biggest boogeyman the division had ever seen by the time he had slaughtered both Carnera and Baer. Every fighter, their corners and their mothers tried to find the solution to beating Louis for what was essentially 2/3rds of Louis' career. Godoy tried to go low and fight off the crouch, Conn refused to let him set and took away his balance on the inside, guys like Buddy Baer and Abe Simon wanted to outmonster him, etc etc. Nobody, and I mean nobody in all of Boxing history, aside from maybe Ali or Mayweather, was such a big target in that regard. Johnson could have been had he defended his title vs elite opposition more, but it wasn't meant to be. Still got dropped by a Middleweight despite being a supposed defensive genius though.

And yet despite that, while Louis was in his prime, he only got dropped a mere 5 times in his first 54 fights. Two of them were by Schmeling, who was the only man aside from Conn to find a layered and consistent way of beating a young Louis, and the only man who suceeded in actually beating him out of 35 attempts by other fighters that tried to defeat Godzilla. And it was this fight in particular that led to Louis being more responsible with his left lead. Say what you want about Louis' defence in this fight, but he got hit with a **** ton of shots by a very notable right hand puncher before being stopped. Certainly not a chin issue.

Take a look at both the Braddock and Galento KDs again and you will see they got him after he had already shifted his weight to his front foot after throwing a punch, both basically just pushed him down. The Baer knockdown is iffy, because Louis got hit flush but was also with his back against the ropes and couldn't find his balance and fell. Even if you think it was a proper knock down shot instead of Louis just tripping due to the lack of space, that's still only 3 times in 55 fights he got dropped where it wasn't due to Louis being tagged mid combination due to his offensive mindset.

And in case you think that Louis being dropped due to his offensive mindset is an indication of defensive neglect, then you needn't look further than guys like Benitez and Whitaker who still got dropped just as much despite being primarily defensive.

 

This is the majority of it for me, personally. Louis was primarily committed to knocking you out, even if he did use great technique in that endeavor. Louis backed his own punches in exchanges. You could say he thrived on it, on the whole despite not being a slugger. He's going to be caught coming in, at times. He's also going to get caught between punches, at times. He's even going to wear the odd hail Mary, at times. He's also not going to see the punch that hits him, at times. He also fought some bigger and/or heavier men.

Holmes did have his share of exchanges, but he spent a helluva lot more time than Louis boxing cautiously from the outside pumping that jab. I think that's a fair representation of both.

 

You're definitely playing word games.

You're quite explicitly stating it's embarrassing to be dropped by Shavers and even taking it a step further saying being dropped by baer (who accomplished even less and has less accolades as a puncher) is less embarrassing.

Has nothing to do with your childish insistence I can't read. That's the only way to interpret your post.

There is nothing embarrassing about being hit like that by Shavers. He had very good timing for a slugger and caught many good fighters with his bombs including Ali, Young, Bugner, Norton, Lyle, etc. Win, lose, or draw, Shavers almost always managed to land his best punches. I think you're the one who needs your eyes checked constantly downplaying Shavers to dismiss Holmes since you know Holmes pops a hole in your agenda.

You and Loakim don't even agree with each other. Loakim excuses Ali being dropped by the significantly inferior Henry cooper because "**** happens" and here you are blasting Holmes for being dropped by Shavers as if Shavers is Jake Paul or a local barroom brawler!

So now we're bringing up the Cobb fight when Shavers was past his prime? But if I bring up how many times Louis got tagged against Marciano, you'll scream about how he's past his prime.

Braddock was trash before and after he won the belt. A career journeyman who managed to steal the belt from a lackadaisical underachiever Baer going through the motions. He was neither a great puncher, nor did he have great technique/leverage/timing. It's certainly more embarrassing than being dropped by Shavers, that's for damn sure, champ or not.

I didn't call Walcott a journeyman. Again, you might want to read carefully before saying someone else can't read.

Snipes, Williams, and Weaver don't puncture a hole through anything since you apparently think it's perfectly okay to get dropped by guys like Braddock and Galento.

But I didn't say balance and defense were the exact same things so you're arguing with yourself at this point.

No, genius, I didn't say Wladmir is proof Louis had a bad chin/defense, I'm saying Wladmir's long reign is proof that someone having a long reign isn't proof they must have a good chin/defense because we BOTH agree Wladmir didn't have a great chin or defense. Again, for someone who is becoming haughty accusing people of having bad eyes, you have terrible reading comprehension George.

Yeah, duh they're different fighters. See the reply above.

Didn't put **** in your mouth at all, nor did I ignore anything. You did, however, continuously miss the point I was making while having the audacity to say I have vision problems.

Still don't know when you named the three notable fighters Buddy stopped. It literally would've taken you less time to simple write it again if I missed it then to write this pointless paragraph.

And you definitely aren't in any position to say someone's being disingenuous blasting Holmes for being dropped by Shavers with a straight face and defending Louis being dropped by inferior fighters. You argue in bad faith, then accuse people of doing the same. Make it make sense.

 

In regards to Ali, he continuously had trouble dealing with left hooks throughout his career. It was more of a stylistic thing than outright bad defense that led to Ali being dropped by Banks and Cooper. Ali was also a notorious showboater in his prime, and was being rather reckless against Cooper. The Wepner knockdown is just one of those things I guess. No one could really nail Ali flush that well when he was focused and had his speed/youth.

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument I agree with every single thing you wrote. How does that change what I said? Louis offense made up for his deficiencies on the defensive/chin end. His power, timing, accuracy, hand speed, etc were off the charts. When that is the case, a fighter will go through hell simply defending themselves, let alone attempting to hit you back.

The point being: Louis offen didn't even need to really worry about his chin/defense all that much because his offense and ring general ship were so damn good. He was both a KO artist and a splendid boxer, a machine gun with plenty of ammo that was so hard to stop or get away from.

 

Hi Buddy.
More than fair I would say, as is your custom an informative and instructive post, delivered with common sense and a polite narrative, honestly cannot see a counter case for your appraisal of Louis.
stay safe JT, chat soon buddy.
Mike.

 

Well I disagree that Braddock was “trash,” but if you look at the slow motion footage of the knockdown sequence, Louis had Braddock over toward a neutral corner just pounding on him and had just thrown two massive right hands … one just kind of grazed Braddock and the other didn’t connect solidly but still at least to my eyes hurt Braddock … and Braddock just kind of lashed out and caught Louis by surprise and off balance. In fact it looked to me like he was about to fall on top of Louis from that right hand. Braddock came out and took the fight to Louis that night but the knockdown IMO was an absolute fluke.

 

Somebody call the forum police, because shots are being fired in this thread.

 

Or don't. Classic stays wild like the west, baby.

 

We don't deserve you here Mike!

 

Hi Buddy.
Thanks for your ever so kind words, it means the world.
stay safe JT, chat soon buddy.
Mike.