Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

That's completely untrue, Martin's manager Pinny Schafer was very clear that the injury happened during the Liston fight. As the Associated Press reported:

Schafer said the fighter complained his right eye was bothering him on the return trip from Las Vegas following Saturday's 9-round bout with Liston.

"He said he felt like he was looking through blood at Liston from the fifth round on," Schafer said. "There wasn't any blood you could see on the eyeball, so it must have been in the back of the eye.

"It looks like the cloud we've been riding is busted under us," Schafer said.

https://ibb.co/TBBwTm5g

 

Thanks for exposing this compulsive liar.
Good post!

 

I found this on boxrec:
“Leotis Martin was forced to retire due to a detached retina, which can happen to any fighter. And many people believe he actually suffered that injury a couple of months prior to the Liston bout, when he fought Wendell Newton.”

I found another source—BoxeoMundial's “Punchers from the Past: Leotis Martin”—which mentions eye trouble before the Liston fight. While they don’t give it as an exact quote, the article states that Martin:

“was diagnosed with a detached retina and forced to retire… fighting with the injury from before the Liston fight” boxeomundial.com.

This suggests that his eye injury dates from an earlier bout—not Liston—likely pointing to the Newton fight on October 28, 1969.

 

Nice try again, Martin did get eye problem before Liston hehe, you can do nothing about it.

 

I found this on boxrec:
“Leotis Martin was forced to retire due to a detached retina, which can happen to any fighter. And many people believe he actually suffered that injury a couple of months prior to the Liston bout, when he fought Wendell Newton.”



I found another source—BoxeoMundial's “Punchers from the Past: Leotis Martin”—which mentions eye trouble before the Liston fight. While they don’t give it as an exact quote, the article states that Martin:

“was diagnosed with a detached retina and forced to retire… fighting with the injury from before the Liston fight” boxeomundial.com.

This suggests that his eye injury dates from an earlier bout—not Liston—likely pointing to the Newton fight on October 28, 1969.

 

"There is also the self contradicting dual claims that 1) Williams record was padded with few notable names appearing and 2) Williams was well "experienced" going into the Satterfield bout with a 35-1-1 record."

There is no contradiction at all. A fighter can have a lot of fights against marginal opposition and yet has not been tested against first rate opposition. Williams had 37 pro fights and 139 pro rounds. Comparisons:

Bob Foxworth--was rated in 1947 and 1948. Rose to #2 in the NBA light-heavy ratings in 1948. Had a career record of 20-3. KO'd Bob Garner, Bob Satterfield, Johnny Colan (2), Dolph Quijano, Fitzie Fitzpatrick, and Leonard Morrow. Forced to retire in 1948 due to detached retina. Total pro rounds in career--115. Had 46 rounds of pro experience when he took on and KO'd Satterfield. Had extensive amateur background.

Wes Bascom--defeated his first rated fighter with 23 rounds of pro experience. Defeated Satterfield, when Satts was prime, with 46 rounds of pro experience. Boxrec lists 18 rounds of amateur experience. (Bascom was from the deep South in a segregated era. A rebuttal might be that he had more extensive amateur experience than recorded. But the same could be true of Williams, another deep South African-American fighter. What newspapers would have covered African-American amateur fights in the Old South?)

Ernie Terrell--was 24-3 with 140 rounds of pro experience when he took on Williams. Boxrec lists 3 amateur fights for a total of 5 rounds. This is plausible, as Terrell turned pro at 18.

The real contradiction is dismissing the Satterfield KO on the basis of Williams being green, but crediting Williams victory over the equally green Terrell. Either neither matter or both matter.

"one can't have their cake and eat it too"

I do that all the time. Depends on the size of the cake. This old saying must have come from the days when cakes were much smaller.

 

So your claim to have posted an article where Martin's manager said that he had eye problems before the Liston fight was untrue. You have no source, just internet chatter.

I'm only surprised you haven't brought up Russell Peltz yet.

 

He also said the scorecards of Martin v Bonavena prove Bonavena outboxed Martin,yet he hasn't seen either the fight or the scorecards!

 

I will find two more articles where close people to Martin said that it happened in the Newton fight.
But since you can't accept the truth, nothing is enough for you, dear Solomon Deedes.

 

Leotis Martin and Oscar Bonavena fought once, with Bonavena winning by decision in a 10-round bout in Buenos Aires. The fight took place in September 1968. The judges awarded Bonavena the win with scores of 238-229, 238-230, and 237-232.

Isn't that outboxing someone by winning on scorecards?

 

You wouldn't recognize the truth if you fell over it!

 

The amateur records on Boxrec tend to be a bit patchy. As a 15 year old middleweight, Terrell won the Chicago Golden Gloves novice division back in February 1955.

 

You can win fights by outpunching some one as Frazier did v Ali 1

 

"He was absolutely a top contender"

I disagree. He was a decent second-tier contender. Definitely above a fringe contender or a trial horse. Whom do you rate as his peers?

How does he compare with George Chuvalo or Bob Cleroux, two other decent contenders who were not top notch contenders and lost to the best? I would say on the same level. All got into the top five. All had good if somewhat padded won-lost records. I judge both Chuvalo and Cleroux beat better men at the time they beat them. Chuvalo and Harris for Cleroux. Jones and Quarry for Chuvalo. And both beat a post-shooting Williams. There is no good reason to consider the Williams of history a better contender.

"Daniels" "Miteff" "Holman"

Holman had lost 5 of 6. Miteff 3 of 4. They were losing to good men but they were losing. Holman retired after Williams. Miteff was stopped in his next fight by Cleroux. Daniels was the best of these--18-1--when Williams beat him the first time. He was rated #6. This is Williams best win. My take is this is a worthy win, but Daniels then went on a 2-14-1 slide and ended up 23-21-5. Not much to build a "absolutely top contender" status on.

 

Okay. But it also follows that Williams" amateur record might be missing. He had a few preliminary pro fights in 1949. Did he just then take off two years, or did he go back to amateur or "smoker" bouts? No way of knowing in the segregated old South.

Also, I don't agree with equating amateur experience in those days with pro experience. It was not like now.