Muhammad Ali vs the K2 brothers

Wlad beats him.

Vitali vs Ali would be more interesting. Vitali couldn't slaughter little guys quite like his brother could.

 

No seriously 0-2 I agree… the Byrd references that’ll be made are whacky to me because… Byrd was smaller then Ali more agile then Ali with a better defence, CB didn’t pull back and skip around he dipped under and around shots he was closer to Toney (not that similar but with how he took stuff off the shoulder, dipped off to his rear hand and rolled shots)… CB was also southpaw fighting SHORT not like a guy who was bigger then most of his opponents, they’re not even close to similar they’re both just close-ish in size and were famous for being difficult to hit expect in one case it was true… Vitali and Wlad could improve on Ken Norton, Ron Lyle and Oscar Bonavenas results immensely… or if they don’t count Doug Jones and Enry Cooper - Ali fought all wrong to beat either K brother.

 

Ali couldn’t quite slaughter tall guys or decent ones his own size… do you think Norton and Doug Nones did things so much better than Vitali? - at a minimum he improves on them immensely IMO.

 

Ali is better than Byrd but Marciano is better than Ingo … seems irrelevant right? Like comparing Byrd and Ali… one fought short the other was a big guy for his time… Ali has more in common with K2 then Chris Byrd.

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Better? No. But they fought rather differently from Vitali. Vitali, for his part, fought some OK guys Ali's size who tried to outbox him (closest in style to Ali was probably Donald?), while Ali never faced anybody like Vitali, but I don't know that Vitali really thrived against slick little guys like his brother did.

 

How do you think Doug Jone's approach would differ to Vitali? in a way that made him more successful, I understand DJ is not fighting the best version of Ali in yours or my eyes but those same flaws showed up against Norton, Enry and others - the heel is there.

 

Muhammad Ali could win fights against both Klitschko brothers. But he’d have to be at his best to do it and they would be very challenging matches

 

I may be wrong, but I see Vitali as wearing down opponents with high volumes of weird-angle, straight or (when not straight) slappy unorthodox punches from the outside, leaning back and generally fighting in a bizarre sort of way that profited from his being the bigger man.

Doug Jones and Cooper fight like normal sized or smaller men, in a far more orthodox fashion, including a more orthodox defense, and with conventional left hooks and jabs rather than a collection of weird pawings and odd angle punches.

Ali's weaknesses seem to come from his departures from orthodoxy: leaning back to get nailed with the left hook and overhand right, inefficient footwork that moved him out of range, a problem with guys who frustrated his offense by jabbing back, not much inside fighting.

Vitali Klitschko also doesn't have much inside fighting, doesn't throw much in the way of normal left hooks or jabs, and has jerky footwork that I'm not sure is all that nimble. But he's also huge, facing a guy who could usually rely on being as big as, or bigger than, his opponents. And Vitali has his own weird unorthodox stuff going on. So Vitali seems (to me) to present Ali with a different set of problems from the ones that Ali struggled with historically, and I'm not too sure how well Ali solves these new-context problems.

 

I think Ali vs both brothers would be an interesting matchup, as far as who wins I can't say, but I think both would be close fights.

 

So do you think that Ali pulling back head to foot would pose extreme issue with the size of VK? - Vitali is very long, very busy - Ali could not hurt Vitali, Vitali would stay on him and pull a lot of what Ali did on guys like DJ, HC, Norton expect here Ali would not be orthodox enough, Ali fought just outside his opponents reach and usually had to be punched WITH if that makes sense? Vitali would always be able to hit him, he’d need to change his approach majorly or he’d be pinned on the ropes (just a byproduct of always going backwards head to toe) - how do you think Ali would win / be competitive besides obviously just being overall very, very good?

 

Ali would have to fight short against the klitschkos, you do know theyre far bigger right

 

I'm no expert, but here are my thoughts.

Both of them actually have really good reflexes, which is an interesting twist, but Ali had a lot of speed and foot movement to go with them. Vitali didn't, particularly. So Ali can play the avoidance game better than usual despite Vitali's higher volume. From what I recall, Vitali didn't go in as much for the negative, clinching, range control game Wlad did, and he didn't go after the body very much, so he's going to be headhunting against an annoying guy with great reflexes who moves laterally by force of habit. Vitali seemed to prefer shorter, more stationary guys who wanted to slug with him, and he could beat up from a fairly stationary perch.

Conversely, you are correct to point out that Ali's offense wasn't great, and he'd have to play the in and out game, despite being accustomed to fighting guys closer to his own size, and his defense not being built around it. (With the occasional exception of a tall, skinny guy like Bugner or Terrell.) Ali could adjust to a degree; at least he would sometimes raise his hands and box more conventionally.

I think it would be a bad fight, where both guys can't come to grips. I don't see Ali having much sustained success in his spurts, and I don't think Vitali would hit Ali very much, either. Vitali might win just on sustained, clumsy aggression, especially if he had the full 15, and as Ali becomes more stationary in later rounds. I don't think Vitali lands a hail Mary to end it, either. Ali's chin was mostly proved against small heavies, but he got whacked by a lot of good ones.

 

Yes “duh” that’s the point and how well did he do that? He knew his way, sucked at most others… it’d be like asking Vitali to be 6ft in his era his style would get him taken to the chop shop by a good opponent, same as Qawi being 6ft3 - Ali is in that position and the Byrd comparison is dumb, fought nothing alike, Byrd fought like a small guy his whole career.

 

2-0

 

Do you think Vitali was smart enough to get Ali to go backwards in straight lines with his left hand? or to use it to make him circle out into a corner like he did endlessly even in a winning effort against Norton? do you think Vitali was worse off at the feet then foot in the bucket Norton or Bonavena? - just curious. Ali’s issue was he liked to be just outside or in an opponents reach but if he did that here think of how far he would be from hitting Vitali? - I think your post is very balanced and correct BTW.