Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Of course it is a contradiction in terms. A padded record can clearly hinder and falsely reflect a fighter’s accrued experience and, by association, his due development against incrementally improved opposition.

So again, layered or not, offered to you by a naive Marie Antoinette or not, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Oh, and Williams was a late sub, let’s not keep forgetting that fact - and, some 5-6 years later, and 10-15 lbs bigger, he was obviously a somewhat removed (clearly improved) fighter than the barely 21 yo that engaged Satterfield in 1954.

 

Imagine your best win is a 190lbs guy you outweigh by over 20lbs and the one 210lbs+ fighter you beat who was “good” almost KO’d you by your words, said fighter had a glass chin and the 2nd “good” (great) 210lbs+ guy you fought who could really fight beat you easily… should people be picking you to beat Wladmir, Lennox, Tyson and Louis? lol. Liston was a lumbering “big man” of his time SHW speed, footwork, style and endurance paired with the small HW size, chin, power and strength - fierce!

 

Liston V Marciano
Who wins?

 

Irrelevant?

 

Translated= Liston beats the **** out of Rocky,but I can't bring myself to admit it. lol

 

Liston couldn't beat LHWs Leotis Martin and Marty Marshall, young Ali beat the crap out of him that he quit twice plus he needed to cheat.

Machen neutralized Liston with close range fighting where Liston's reach was disadvantage, and Rocky is 1000 times better than that.

Liston best wins are scared LHW Patterson with questionable chin and the most dropped man in boxing history, and 2nd best win was one handed slugger with no defense and also questionable chin.

So yeah Liston beats everyone according to you, his fans and this dumb forum.

 

Seventh fight Liston lost a split decision to much more experienced 7th ranked lHvy Martin.Listonwas fighting with the handicap of a broken jaw. Liston beat the **** out of Marsall in the rematch dropping him multiple times and stopping him.Marshall ran away all night inthe rubber match and did not win a round.
An Old Liston after leading on points and flooring199lbs Martin ran out of gas and was kod by a big shot.
Machen was on his bike against Liston and lost a unanimous decision.This thread is about Liston not Marciano.
However, how Marciano, at Liston's age would do against Martin is something to ponder.
Congratulations.
You are the worst poster on this forum.
You are the worst poster on this forum

 

Did any great fighter with amateur experience lose his 7th fight against a bum whom he outweighted by 20-plus pounds?
I don't think so.

Martin started as a 170-pounder; he was the Same size as James Toney, SMW and LHW, not a HW he just bulked up to 200 pounds to be big enough to trade punches with HWs, the same way James Toney did.
Did any great fighter lose against a fighter 20 pounds lighter than him, but in reality, Liston was 40 pounds heavier than Martin?

 

It’s not relevant in a thread that has 0 to do with Rocky Marciano, if I respond all it’ll do is derail the thread because it’s a very debatable bout. Stop being a weirdo about the icon and legend Mr Marciano.

 

What were the circumstances of Leotis Martin's kayo of Liston? Martin had little to fear because he'd been Sonny's sparring partner seven years prior and he knew everything about Sonny's moves and style. He knew what everyone in boxing knew by then, that Liston could be tagged by a right hand thrown over his own jab. The first move Martin made in Round One was to fake throwing a right hand over Liston's left jab. That was a message he wanted to plant in Liston's mind. Then he just fought patiently figuring that Liston would tire in the late going. The fight was scheduled for 12 rounds. That's a long, long night for an old, 219-pound heavyweight who can't stay away from vodka. Liston must have felt some urgency to knock Leotis out by the middle rounds -- but that did not happen. Then in Round 8 a right hand punch broke Liston's nose and the blood flowed into his mouth, impeding his breathing and accelerating his fatigue. In Round 9, seeing that Sonny was in distress, Martin got aggressive and landed the big right hand that floored and finished Liston.

BoxingFan2022, what is your point and why are you belaboring it? You're saying that Liston is overrated and you're citing Martin's KO of him as evidence. Okay, fine. I say consider the reality of that afternoon in Las Vegas, and let's move on. Surely you have something more interesting to contribute.

 

Excellent post!

 

You accept the info you want to accept, but my take is what happened with Williams between 1948 and 1951 is lost in a murky past. Williams is probably the only real source, and what he says contradicts much of the established narrative. For example, you say 2 1/2 years, but Williams says his first fight was at 14. So that makes 6 to 7 years rather than less than 3. Total number of fights is cloudy. All we know for certain is that Williams had fought at least 40 pro fights.

"20 years old"

If Wiki is correct he was a week from his 21st birthday. If his grave is right, he was three weeks past his 21st birthday. Personally, why make a fuss. He was basically 21.

"10-15 pounds lighter than he was as a contender"

Williams is quoted that he matured early and weighed 182 at 14. He was 201 for Satterfield, slightly less than his weight in other fights. Yes. He put on some weight, but who doesn't. Louis was 196 at the same age for Carnera. About 207 for Baer in 1942. I don't see the difference proving anything against the Louis of 1935.

"Short notice"

Okay. But he was training. Off his own words, with Bob Baker and knocking him out.

"Satterfield wasn't facing such a tough proposition as Liston"

???? Perhaps another poster is making some point about this comparison. Mine would only be that Williams was a reasonably mature and experienced fighter who failed badly against Satterfield. Does not prove anything about Satterfield against Liston, who was clearly a level above both Williams and Satterfield.

 

I edited it after remembering that televised fight was in the afternoon, not at night. I was 21.Even though you knew that Liston was all washed up, it was still stunning to see him laying unconscious on the canvas.

 

"A padded record can clearly hinder and falsely reflect a fighter's accrued experience and, by association, his due development against incrementally improved opposition."

Exactly. And his critics would charge this was always true for Williams.

"It is a contradiction in terms."

Why? You yourself are saying that fights and rounds don't matter. Opposition does. To become the best you have to fight the best. Not spend your career in the hinterlands against second rate opponents.

"he was obviously a somewhat removed (clearly improved) fighter than the barely 21 yo that engaged Satterfield in 1954."

What is the evidence he was a "clearly improved" fighter for Liston? Point to the fights which prove this. The Williams of 1954 had beaten Agramonte, who had won 5 of his last 8, and whose losses were to good men. Gilliam, who would beat both Baker and Valdes. Dunlap rated #8 and Riviera, rated #10, when Agramonte fought them. In contrast, Holman had lost 5 of his last 6, and was coming in off a knockout. Agramonte had beaten the then 5th ranked Holman badly back in 1950, knocking him down five times. Williams beat both men. I don't see much difference.

Agramonte is clearly one of Williams' better wins. Certainly top ten. Reasonably top five.

 

The first time I ever heard of Cleveland Williams was when he fought Liston in Miami. Until then I think only knowledgable fight fans knew his name -- those outside of Texas, I mean.

During the press buildup to Patterson-Liston I in Chicago, when boxing magazines and newspaper boxing writers began digging into Liston's ring history, the two slugfests with Williams got a lot of mentions. There were photographs of Williams bloodying Liston's nose. The irony is Williams received a publicity boost from getting flattened twice by Sonny, and post-1960 Cleveland began to get more fights against name guys.