Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

What were the circumstances of Leotis Martin's kayo of Liston? Martin had little to fear because he'd been Sonny's sparring partner seven years prior and he knew everything about Sonny's moves and style. He knew what everyone in boxing knew by then, that Liston could be tagged by a right hand thrown over his own jab. The first move Martin made in Round One was to fake throwing a right hand over Liston's left jab. That was a message he wanted to plant in Liston's mind. Then he just fought patiently figuring that Liston would tire in the late going. The fight was scheduled for 12 rounds. That's a long, long night for an old, 219-pound heavyweight who can't stay away from vodka. Liston must have felt some urgency to knock Leotis out by the middle rounds -- but that did not happen. Then in Round 8 a right hand punch broke Liston's nose and the blood flowed into his mouth, impeding his breathing and accelerating his fatigue. In Round 9, seeing that Sonny was in distress, Martin got aggressive and landed the big right hand that floored and finished Liston.

BoxingFan2022, what is your point and why are you belaboring it? You're saying that Liston is overrated and you're citing Martin's KO of him as evidence. Okay, fine. I say consider the reality of that afternoon in Las Vegas, and let's move on. Surely you have something more interesting to contribute.

 

Excellent post!

 

You accept the info you want to accept, but my take is what happened with Williams between 1948 and 1951 is lost in a murky past. Williams is probably the only real source, and what he says contradicts much of the established narrative. For example, you say 2 1/2 years, but Williams says his first fight was at 14. So that makes 6 to 7 years rather than less than 3. Total number of fights is cloudy. All we know for certain is that Williams had fought at least 40 pro fights.

"20 years old"

If Wiki is correct he was a week from his 21st birthday. If his grave is right, he was three weeks past his 21st birthday. Personally, why make a fuss. He was basically 21.

"10-15 pounds lighter than he was as a contender"

Williams is quoted that he matured early and weighed 182 at 14. He was 201 for Satterfield, slightly less than his weight in other fights. Yes. He put on some weight, but who doesn't. Louis was 196 at the same age for Carnera. About 207 for Baer in 1942. I don't see the difference proving anything against the Louis of 1935.

"Short notice"

Okay. But he was training. Off his own words, with Bob Baker and knocking him out.

"Satterfield wasn't facing such a tough proposition as Liston"

???? Perhaps another poster is making some point about this comparison. Mine would only be that Williams was a reasonably mature and experienced fighter who failed badly against Satterfield. Does not prove anything about Satterfield against Liston, who was clearly a level above both Williams and Satterfield.

 

I edited it after remembering that televised fight was in the afternoon, not at night. I was 21.Even though you knew that Liston was all washed up, it was still stunning to see him laying unconscious on the canvas.

 

"A padded record can clearly hinder and falsely reflect a fighter's accrued experience and, by association, his due development against incrementally improved opposition."

Exactly. And his critics would charge this was always true for Williams.

"It is a contradiction in terms."

Why? You yourself are saying that fights and rounds don't matter. Opposition does. To become the best you have to fight the best. Not spend your career in the hinterlands against second rate opponents.

"he was obviously a somewhat removed (clearly improved) fighter than the barely 21 yo that engaged Satterfield in 1954."

What is the evidence he was a "clearly improved" fighter for Liston? Point to the fights which prove this. The Williams of 1954 had beaten Agramonte, who had won 5 of his last 8, and whose losses were to good men. Gilliam, who would beat both Baker and Valdes. Dunlap rated #8 and Riviera, rated #10, when Agramonte fought them. In contrast, Holman had lost 5 of his last 6, and was coming in off a knockout. Agramonte had beaten the then 5th ranked Holman badly back in 1950, knocking him down five times. Williams beat both men. I don't see much difference.

Agramonte is clearly one of Williams' better wins. Certainly top ten. Reasonably top five.

 

The first time I ever heard of Cleveland Williams was when he fought Liston in Miami. Until then I think only knowledgable fight fans knew his name -- those outside of Texas, I mean.

During the press buildup to Patterson-Liston I in Chicago, when boxing magazines and newspaper boxing writers began digging into Liston's ring history, the two slugfests with Williams got a lot of mentions. There were photographs of Williams bloodying Liston's nose. The irony is Williams received a publicity boost from getting flattened twice by Sonny, and post-1960 Cleveland began to get more fights against name guys.

 

Well. You've pronounced the details of Williams's early career "lost in a murky past", but that doesn't stop you pushing the idea that he had "6 to 7 years" professional experience when he fought Satterfield, which is totally unsupported by any evidence or probability.

There's nothing cloudy about the number of fights in his abortive early career - multiple sources say it was six. I never imagined this would be a point of contention, but I'll post one more article giving his record as 4-1-1.

https://ibb.co/YvCjzRn

It's also not true that "he was training" when he got the call to face Satterfield (the famous sparring session with Bob Baker was months before). He had been out of the gym since knocking out Sylvester Jones two weeks earlier.

 

"6 to 7 years" professional experience when he fought Satterfield, which is totally unsupported by any evidence or probability."

You just posted the evidence in your above article.

"In 1947 an overgrown kid . . . began fighting professionally to support his grandmother."

"It was when he was repeating the seventh grade that Williams decided to quit and start boxing professionally because his family needed the money."

"Cleveland Williams, only 14, weighed 182."

"Williams won four, lost one, and had one draw until Georgia boxing authorities found out he was underage and retired him until 1951."

box rec lists---11-16-1949 Dan Bolston, draw 4

So, off the 1947 and 1949 dates, he was a pro for at least two years before his suspension, resuming his career in 1951. So Williams had been a pro for 7 years although he apparently did not fight in 1950. And it is clear he had at least 40 fights before facing Satterfield.

I stick with murky. A big caveat is if any of this info is accurate. It comes from many years later.
---------------------------------------

Baker lost to Moore on March 9, 1954. So the sparring session was before that. Williams knocked out Jones two weeks before the Satterfield bout. The article posted does not provide any info about Williams not training. What is the evidence, and does it only come from Williams?

I must say it is something of a headscratcher why there is so much effort put into writing off the Satterfield defeat. Fighters with better records than Williams lost to Satterfield.

 

They can't write it off no matter how hard they try. Williams badly lost to Satterfield. An ageing LHW coming off two recent defeats. All the noise you're hearing is just a severe case of copage. Williams just wasn't all that.

 

I really love that Liston is going the same way as Marciano with the whacky gymnastics for his C tier resume, poor H2H capacity and overall lack of substance. Marciano may have fought older guys but they were not 20lbs lighter - Liston would be BODIED by basically anyone we think would comedically overwhelm Marciano.

 

I’ve already explained the contradiction in terms and, for some reason, on this occasion, you didn’t quote me in full re those terms.

Claiming a fighter to be both duly experienced BUT also carrying a heavily padded record at a certain stage of his career IS the cut and dried contradiction.

So you’re contending that the barely aged 21 yo, 201 1/2 lb, late sub Williams did not improve after the Satterfield fight - that he was already as good as he ever was going to be - and are you now suggesting he had very good wins on his record going into the Satterfield fight?

As compared to Williams prior comp, - which included 4-5 debutants, even 1-2 of those engaged in the later stages of his then record, Satterfield was a major step up, not an incremental one.

I also believe that, post fight, Satterfield himself cited a greater potential and future for Williams given more more maturity and experience - he could see that but you can’t?

If the Satterfield fight inexplicably reflected Williams’ career ceiling in respect of his capabilities, we would’ve seen Cleve trip and fall in similar fashion far more than he actually did during his career going forward - the only abbreviated KO losses be suffered were against an absolute prone Liston 5-6 years later -

No one is trying to erase the Satterfield KO loss - but there are those who are applying due context in order to analyse and weight that loss accordingly.

A lighter, 21 yo Ali, brought along far more considerately than Williams in terms of incrementally improved opposition and due development, almost met a similar fate vs Cooper in 1963 - no one is pretending that didn’t happen either but they’re also not pretending that the near KO loss defined the prime Ali or the fighter that Ali later became.

Suffice to say, pre title Ali’s team knew to steer clear of the seasoned, rough/tough Chuvalo during his march to the title and not engage the Canadian before Ali had fully ripened.

For another analogy, 23 yo, 5 year pro Jack Johnson was KO’d in < 3 by a beyond prime, virtual SMW in Joe Choysnksi - again, due context has to be applied to view that loss in its rightful perspective.

 

Do you happen to know Leotis Martin’s birth weight? Because, in all fairness, that’s the weight we should be running with, the weight he started out at - his most natural weight.

 

Maybe we should assign weight divisions to newborns:

14 pounds+ = heavyweight
11-14 = cruiser
10-11 light heavy
8-9 middleweight
6-7 welterweight
4-5 lightweight
2-3 preemieweight

I have it on good authority that Leotis Martin weighed 7 pounds 8 ounces at birth. He was a junior middleweight.

 

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