What if Joe Frazier.....

If he had stopped Foreman and won 2/3 against Ali? Might well be regarded as The Greatest. It doesn't change overall how people view Ali -- Mike Tyson's losses didn't hurt his fanbase, him clearly not being the best of his era didn't hurt his fanbase, why would it have been different for Ali? Big personality wins.

Frazier actually was kind of likeable, but he just didn't have the personality to make him the kind of legend Ali became. Same goes for all the 90's guys not named Mike Tyson.

I recommend reading Frazier's autobiography, btw. Great read that gives you a real good sense of the man. Especially his refusal to ever call Ali anything other than "Clay" or "the Butterfly" -- that's how pissed off he remained about the leadup to the FOTC. Even later in life.

 

Great point, Larry Holmes, great, long standing champion but horrifically dull personality. He never gets mentioned with the true heavyweight greats. Belting an ageing Ali to a pulp probably doesn't help either.

 

I rate Holmes high but it wasn't just his dull personality - he just wasn't a very exciting fighter. His style was relatively boring.

 

He'd be seen as top 3 Heavyweight of all time had he accomplished all that.

But the issue is when you change outcomes like this it effects the other fighters standing aswell.

Like for example if Foreman doesn't have the big win over Frazier his overall standing drops significantly and he probably wouldn't be a top 10 Heavyweight anymore.

Hence Frazier's win over Foreman wouldn't quite have the same impact although it would still be very good.

Remember Frazier was actually the favourite over Foreman.

 

Have to disagree with you here.

Holmes has been in 3 fights that are amongst my favourite Heavyweight fights of all time vs Norton, Witherspoon, Weaver.

I never found Holmes boring TBH.

 

Me too

 

I don’t think it was ever in the cards for Frazier to be the GOAT because at the end of the day he was just a boxer. A stupendously great boxer with a compelling story of coming up from nothing, but still just a boxer. Holmes is the same. And I don’t mean that as an insult. But Ali, Foreman, Tyson, even Louis, Dempsey and Marciano had something extra about them inside and outside the ring that transcended their physical greatness.

 

agree here. he absolutely had some great fights, and with the right opponent could generate a FOTY candidate.

the fight with Norton remains the best technical HW battle captured on film.

and the first fight with Shavers is an excellent fight also. Larry played Matador perfectly, fought an absolutely perfect fight against a dangerous opponent.

 

No doubt Smoke would be in the discussion with Louis for the Top ATG.

 

Excellent point re the butterfly/domino effect. A hypothetical that revises and adds a + 1 to one side of the ledger has to also account for the consequential - 1 to other side of the ledger.