If Marciano Had Fought Valdes,Baker,& Henry?

Thank you, McVey. And if I could double-down on this subject for a moment, there was one other piece I found to be pertinent on the subject. I had read an interesting article of when the Marciano - Cockell fight was signed and how Al Weill had a group of boxing writers packed together when he announced Cockell as the next opponent and the writer stated that Weill, unashamedly, tried to convince the writers that they were taking on something big by exclaiming, "Hey, this guy's a killer!" The writer said, we all fell to the ground laughing. It really sounds like Weill was a real carnival barker.

 

I was just wondering how the betting went with Cockell and what sort of chance betters thought he had:

Here are some odds over the years--from the 1976 Ring Record Book

Dempsey-Miske 1921 Dempsey 7-1
Tunney-Heeney 1928 Tunney 15-1
Baer-Braddock 1935 Baer 10-1
Louis-Farr 1937 Louis 5-1
Louis-Walcott 1947 Louis 10-1
Marciano-Cockell 1955 Marciano 7-1
Marciano-Moore 1955 Marciano 4-1
Patterson-Harris 1958 Patterson 4-1
Patterson-London 1959 Patterson 10-1
Patterson-Johansson 1959 Patterson 4-1
Liston-Ali 1964 Liston 7-1
Ali-Folley 1967 Ali 6-1
Frazier-Daniels Frazier 15-1
Frazier-Stander Frazier 20-1
Ali-Wepner Ali 15-1


I put in Moore specifically to see how the odds for Moore would stack up with the odds for Cockell to give some perspective on how Marciano was viewed, and of course Cockell.

So Cockell was a longer shot than Farr, but viewed as having a better shot than Heeney or London.

The Harris versus London odds give perspective on how Patterson was viewed, as well as London.

 

yes, very embarrassing choice of an opponent, and Weill has no excuse for this atrocity, Valdes should have been the guy here. However, Marciano more than redeemed himself in his next fight by knocking out the best heavyweight contender of his generation, Archie Moore, in the most important fight of his career. Take note, that the three fighters mentioned in the thread title (Valdes Baker and Henry) went a combined 0-4 against Archie Moore.

At the end of the day, Marciano fought and beat the best heavyweight contender of his era. Jack Dempsey did not.

 

Did I miss something? Where did Dempsey come from?

 

oh really to which one?

Marciano and Valdes sparred at Stillman’s, witnessed by the late great forum poster Joe Rein (aka John Garfield) who according to Joe ‘Marciano got the better of it, and Valdes walked out out of the ring completely broken”

Also, Valdes-Satterfield should show you that a 5’10 short armed power puncher can have success against Valdes. Oh, and Marciano had a granite chin unlike satterfields glass mandible.

Valdes has two things working against him. He loved to brawl (didn’t utilize his reach enough) and he gassed, recipe for disaster against the rings ultimate animal.

Bob Baker. Impressive talent, who lacked a good chin and wasn’t a heavy hitter. He wouldn’t be able to keep Marciano off him for 15. Baker had all sorts of problems with Hurricane Jackson and even Rex Layne, both guys who swarmed all over him.

Clarence Henry. At his peak, maybe the toughest out. Henry had fast hands and electric power in his left hook. However, Henry was a clear tier below great fighters like Marciano. Archie Moore exposed this. Henry could be sloppy at times and easy to hit. Could he dish it out in the trenches and hang with Marciano for 15 ? No way. He wasn’t overwhelmingly physically imposing at 185lb and wouldn’t enjoy any physical advantages over Marciano, which is a critical component to be able to beat him.

 

Marciano knocked Archie Moore down 4 times, including for a 10 count. Something Valdes could not manage to do in two fights with Moore. What does this say about Valdes’ power?

Archie Moore is the all time knockout king, who also went 22-1 with 19 knockouts against men over 200lb. To criticize Marciano’s chin for getting up at a count of 2 after receiving the all time knockout king’s best sunday punch is bizarre.

 

A lot of Dempsey fans are vocal detractors of Marciano’s title reign, usually hammering the title defense against Don Cockell, and ignoring the massive win over # 1 ranked Moore, while turning a blind eye to Jack’s own title reign in which he egregiously avoided his number 1 contender for years.

 

Welcome back!

 

I think the 49-0 still stands, but many people today would be complaining that Rocky did not fight Lastarza, Cockell, and Mathews.

 

@mcvey The answer is yes, Marciano’s legacy does improve if he beats Henry Valdes and Baker given the youth, size, length, and punching ability of these men, which were lacking in the younger contenders on Marciano’s resume. Cockell never should have been a title defense over Valdes.

However, Marciano firmly cemented his legacy with a knockout win over the best heavyweight contender of his era, Archie Moore, who went 4-0 against Valdes, Henry, Baker.

While he lacked a win over a young contender with length and size, he did knockout a 6’2 214lb Joe Louis, who was nearly the same size as Baker and Valdes. Was a 37 year old Louis as good as baker and Valdes? To be honest, possibly. Louis knocked out Valdes in 1 round in a live exhibition in 1950. If Valdes at his peak fights that same version of Louis, how much better does he do? Maybe the fight goes the distance, can he outpoint Louis? Would be close

Louis seemed to beat up agramonte, bivins, brion just as badly as baker and Henry did. Do they beat Louis in 51? I’d say it’s a toss up, Louis could pile up points on the scorecard with that jab and his skills.

Layne is an underrated win for Marciano, given Layne beat younger versions of Charles and Walcott and knocked out Satterfield (who beat baker and valdes). Layne was also 34-1. Marciano knocked him out cold. Layne gave baker quite a bit of trouble in 3 fights going the distance each time.

There are levels to this game, and Marciano was levels above baker Valdes Henry. Despite the significant reach and height advantages for baker and Valdes, they never used them properly, while Marciano became a master at utilizing his deficiencies to become a smaller target and gaining leverage inside. Marciano was also a 1%er in strength, I highly doubt a Baker or Valdes could bully Marciano around the ring.

 

The lastarza rematch was necessary. The first fight was close and the accusations of marciano ducking him would've held some merit if that were the case. Though the 3 scalps provided would undoubtedly improve marciano's resume.

 

I think replacing any of them w Don slightly improves his legacy. Maybe having Valdez or Baker in there would have shut up some of the size queens…but I doubt it. The real gems on Marciano’s list were Archie (who beat all those men), Walcott, Charles, Louis and Layne. All of which were better than all the listed fighters. A way past it Layne took a prime Baker life and death beat a prime Satterfield who beat Baker and Nino.