Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Patterson won Olympic Gold at middleweight. Muhammad Ali won Olympic Gold at light heavyweight.

 

Excellent points Sir !

 

Well, again, you are comparing ATG with Martin, and Martin is not an ATG.
Dempsey started light but became top 10 atg, while Martin started light and was just a contender, and not even a great contender.

Ezzard Charles is ATG and possibly the greatest LHW of all time. Martin was a good journeyman and okayish contender at best, you can not compare them.

Some fighters started light but achieved greatness, Martin didn't achieve anything besides being a contender at best.

 

Yeah but they were top 10 HWs of all time while Martin is not top 20 contenders for HW title of all time let alone top 50 hws of all time ha ha.

 

Oh really? So according to you Leotis Martin is not in the top 50 heavyweights of all time ? That's quite
a claim on your part.Would you like to give a rating to the Leon Spinks who defeated Muhammad Ali ?
Yep,the very same Leon Spinks who had all of 7 fights before he fought Ali.Or perhaps you would like
to place Kevin McBride in your pantheon of the great heavyweights ? You know, that bloke who defeated
Mike Tyson.

 

No, stop trying to wriggle out of this.You sneered at Leotis Martin for starting at a comparatively low weight.Now you're squirming around trying to disguise the folly of your original statement.

 

Michael Spinks won Olympic Gold at middleweight.

 

Is Martin listed in the top 50 of all time by any magazine?

Leon Spinks was an Olympic gold champion and was HW champion, Martin could not do that in amateurs and was not even a good contender, yet Ali defeated Spinks in a rematch.

Kevin McBride was twice as big as Tyson, unlike Liston, who fought against a guy 30 pounds lighter than him, so that makes Tyson greater, at least losing against someone twice as big as him, unlike Liston, who lost against an LHW.
And Tyson went to prison for a few years in the middle of his prime, unlike Liston, who spent his prime fighting.

What makes Ali better? fought, lost a fight, and won in a rematch, which Liston could not do
What makes Tyson greater: he fought and lost against a guy twice as big as him

So yeah, even at their lowest point, they were greater than Liston.

 

Nope, my statement is right, you compared Martin, a journeyman and contender, with Goats of their weight classes starting lower weight classes, but your argument is weak and here is why:
Those guys who started lower weights beat guys bigger than them and became all-time greats so lower weights make them even greater because they beat bigger guys and became goats in their weightclasses, unlike Martin, who was a smaller man but did not achieve anything, so being a smaller guy doesnt make him greater.

 

Yeah, but he won it. Martin could not see that he was also an average amateur.

 

Why are we even discussing the performances of cooked fighters? What does it add to the discussion?

 

This is a load of gibberish from you.You sneered at Leotis Martin for being a comparatively small man while
conveniently forgetting that other renowed heavyweights started their professional careers at an
even lower weight.The comparative merits of these fighters is immaterial to the point you so erroneously
tried to make.

 

Again you are peddling absolute nonsense.The Leotis Martin who defeated Sonny Liston
would definitely beaten the very raw Spinks who defeated Ali.As for McBride ? Oh come on,
Leotis Martin was not an ATG but he was much,much better than McBride.

 

Again you are trying to wriggle out of your original,very flawed argument.Why are trying to use the comparative merits of these
fighters when you placed so much emphasis on size ?

 

Achievement of fighters are important even tho they started smaller, you compared Martin with guys who started low weights, but you also compared him to guys who are goats of their weight classes and who achieved 1000 times more than Martin.

That's why I think compared Martin and saying " they started small too" , yeah but they did something and became top 3 LHWs or HWs, something Martin could only dream about.