Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

I'm enjoying our discussion because it makes me think. Ernie intended to use his superior height and reach and to exploit Ali's unorthodox style:


"I'm six six and he's six three," he says. "I got longer arms, and I use them for an advantage. You talk about styles? He's made to order for me, and mine is the worst possible for him. He's good at pulling back from a punch, but I don't throw just one. I come in with a double and triple jab. Maybe the first won't land, but the second or third will when he runs out of the ring. And I'm apt to hook off the jab in mid-stream, too."

"You take a book of matches," he said. "Stand it up facing you and flick at it with your finger and you gonna hit 10 out of 10 times. Now you turn the edge toward you and try again, and it ain't that easy to hit. That's the kind of target I am. I'm edge on to Clay, I'm like a tall, skinny pencil he can't hit. I'm not tailored for him to beat like Liston or Williams or Patterson. He calls me a one-armed bandit and a giraffe and things, and I'll go along with him if it builds a pile of money. But when we fight, he's gonna have to take it for the first time—I'll be hitting him from outside his range to hit back, and I'll tie him up in close. That side-to-side move don't bother me—I've had that before. Chuvalo got to Clay, and if he can do it I'll do it easy."


https://vault.si.com/vault/1967/02/06/muhammad-ali-ernie-terrell-title-fight


"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

- Michael Gerard Tyson

 

Because McBride was a huge, fat, muscular man who leaned on people.

I mean, even a shot Sonny probably still had enough left to beat McBride. But it would be exhausting for an old timey 1960s athlete no longer in his prime.

McBride and Wepner are in roughly the same class of fighter. Maybe I'd go with McBride head to head, since at least he won his fight with a depleted former champion, and he was bigger, stronger, and perhaps better technically. Although the last may be a pick 'em; at least McBride seemed to fight Wepner's sort of sloppy fight with comparable or greater ability to Wepner.

 

It's been explained to him many times that both Martin and his manager explicitly said that the injury happened against Liston, and that there's no evidence of the cut he suffered against Wendell Newton causing any lasting damage. He doesn't care. He wants it to be true, so he just keeps on posting it.

 

An elimination tournament of Mike Tyson, Leotis Martin, Kevin McBride, and Sonny Liston at the same junctures of their careers would be interesting.

 

Have you watched any of Terrell's fights were he showed the kinds of skills he would have needed to exploit his greater height and reach?

Closest I remember running into was Williams II, where at least Terrell was mobile and tried to circle away from Williams's hook. Although in most of them, he was still hunched forward. Jabbed OK from the outside in the Doug Jones fight, although there it was more a function of Jones being very small.

Comparing him to somebody like Klitschko, Terrell didn't really seem to have the ability to control distance.

Your quote, when combined with the film, sort of plays into that. He's planning to double or triple the jab going forward (in his hunched peekaboo) against Ali, which is what he did, along with grappling. Which is a bit strange from the taller guy, typically.

 

I would be morbidly curious enough to watch if it wasn't on PPV. But in keeping with the "horrible card you should feel bad for watching" theme, it's probably $59.99 and run by Don King.

 

Cheers mate.Yep, I do remember this being posted to this guy before.

 

Agreed.I'm not saying Wepner was levels above McBride or anything like that.In fairness both these guys
were tough and had plenty of guts.Both Wepner and McBride would provide the same degree of difficulty
for any potential opponent.However given the horrific damage Liston ( despite his obvious decline ) inflicted
on Wepner I'm condident he would also give McBride a comprehensive beating.Perhaps,just perhaps,for
the reasons you say McBride would last a bit longer than Chuck.But the end result would be still be a
conclusive victory for Sonny.

 

But that's the gist of the matter.The evidence points to Martin suffering the detached retina in the Liston fight,i.e at that later date.

 

I"m watching Terrell V Williams 2 right now. It's amazing how bad Ali made both of them look, they look decent here, with the caveat Williams was a shot fighter, literally and figuratively.

 

Yes,but given the horrific damage inflicted on Wepner he was never going to come close to lasting 15 rounds.
Now whether Liston had stamina problems or not ,the question is academic.Just about every ringside
observer were amazed the Wepner fight wasn't stopped much earlier.It's safe to assume the same would
happen to McBride.

 

If I had to guess, Sonny/McBride ends with McBride's face pulverized, and Sonny inactive and exhausted, but McBride unable to put him away. Sonny loses the late rounds on inactivity, but wins on points overall from the damage done. I don't think McBride bled like Wepner did.

Slight chance of Sonny recapturing lightning in a bottle and landing something that knocks McBride out, though. And although I wouldn't be totally surprised if McBride eventually grinds Sonny down by forcing Sonny to carry his 280 pounds on old man legs, it's not the likely outcome, IMO.

If given the choice between the two, Sonny ought to pick Wepner.

 

Actually that is a pretty good analysis of how Liston vs McBride could go.

 

It was the most movement I'd seen from Terrell, and the shot opponent may play into that.

 

It does not, it only points out that the injury happened and was even more evident after the Liston fight.