Would anyone pick Wilder to beat Liston??

Name literally just one guy on that list that Cleveland hits harder than. Just one.

OT: Just realized I never gave a reasoning for Wilder vs Liston. Liston had slow feet and his style worked a lot around his reach and jab. Wilder for all his faults is very good at controlling the distance, has a decent jab and had incredible timing on that right hand. Liston probably wins most of the early rounds with his jab then randomly gets countered over the top with a right hand that sleeps him for a week.

 

I pick Lennox Lewis to beat both of them.

 

I agree. I don't think you can really prove who hit harder, beyond a certain point. And if we are talking rating lists, I don't think we can empirically prove where a guy ranks as a puncher, really; it's a somewhat subjective kind of thing.

Shavers may have hit somewhat harder than the other 70s / 80s guys because the opponents all say so, for example, but usually fine grained distinctions like that between punchers from the same era aren't really viable.

 

Good post.What you say is particularly relevant to the heavyweight-division which has a long history
of huge punchers.

 

''Sleeps him for a week '' ? Looks like you've been drinking from the old hyperbole bottle again. Now what part
of the statement that I made when I stated that it was impossible to provide empirical evidence that some heavyweights punched harder than others that made it so difficult for you to understand ?
Tell you what, let's take look at what the Ring magazine had to say about Cleveland Williams:

' If not for Sonny Liston's fearsome left hook Williams' straight right might have been the heavyweight punch of the 1950s and 1960s.

I know you wont like this praise for the punching power of Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston but there you go, the words of the most authoritative boxing magazine in history,

 

Again, he was in his 40s and a shot fighter. At least Wepner actually made it into the top ten ratings. Herdon is not even a top 50 fighter, and Wilder failed to KO him. What's your excuse for that?

And what the **** happens if he bleeds out? Is he going to be conscious? Even if you take away the cuts, his eyes were nearly shut, he was exhausted, he’d already been dropped, and was taking a beating round after round.

Please. Liston had 264 rounds to Wilder' s 187. Liston was busy clearing out the division while Wilder's manufactured resume had more padding than a mattress.

He fought four elite opponents Fury, Parker, Zhang, and Ortiz, and only beat one of them.

 

Roy Harris (who fought Sonny Liston and sparred with Cleveland Williams),"my toughest opponent and most dangerous was when I sparred with Cleveland williams."http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

"But at one point in his career, he would have spelled real problems for Ali, because at his height as a puncher, Cleveland Williams hit harder than Liston. Before he got shot, the man was awesome. But afterwards, he wasn't much of a fighter. " Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=DfcPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq="williams+hit+harder+than+liston"&source=bl&ots=U_vhYf34f8&sig=ACfU3U0-9tFME4JqtaE-xx34tjfj1d-8XA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqlYTguIHqAhUeRDABHQPoDhYQ6AEwAXoECAMQAQ

Ernie Terrell (Who fought Williams twice and sparred with Liston)
His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en
:"He was the strongest fighter I ever fought"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion
"His left hook is poison."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en
"I fought Williams (Cassius Clay's Monday night victim Cleveland Williams twice and I thought that man hit harder than even Liston. But the years were very much on Clay's side." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57503132/calgary-herald/

Sonny Liston:......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
"He hit as hard as I could."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ

"two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news

"Asked to compare Clay and Williams, Daniels said Monday: There's no comparison. Williams hits much harder. I'd fight Clay every night in the week. But that Williams man, he's a load of dynamite." Article clipped from The Salt Lake Tribune - Newspapers.com

Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams has the punch. Some say he hits harder than Sonny Liston. Others go further and claim the Big Cat can hit a man with more force than Joe Louis.

"The big cat is credited with breaking one man's back with a blow to the midsection, punishing Billy Daniels so badly that Daniels has never been the same fighter since, and hitting young Jack Johnson so hard that a blood vessel ruptured in Johnson's forehead."

Article clipped from Carlsbad Current-Argus - Newspapers.com

Ending the career of Tommy Fields with a terrific beating April 7, 1964. Henry Armstrong said Fields was one of the best defensive fighters he had ever seen. Handing Sonny Banks such a merciless beating July' 21, 1964. that might have been responsible for Banks death in his next fight.

Bill Davee, who was in Williams' corner, said Williams gave Banks a murderous beating for five rounds, but did not finish him. Davee said he told Williams after the fifth to finish Banks for his (Banks) own good. Williams knocked him out in the sixth.

Article clipped from The York Dispatch - Newspapers.com

"Curley Lee suffering from incurable brain damage incurred in the Cleveland Williams bout went to a life of crime and murder and is serving time in Napa's hospital for the criminally insane." Fallen Copper - Chap Riese - Google Books

The knockout had the crowd' in stitches. Curley got knocked so high in the air he was horizontal when he crashed to the floor. Also unconscious. Another 'couple of feet and he might have escaped the gravitational and been up there yet. He was out for 20 minutes. They took him to the hospital where they shone lights in his eyes and "recommended a good night's sleep. Curley had already had one. When he got back to L.A.. he thought perhaps he had a bad head cold because every time he blew his nose it brought blood. He had the sensation his eyes were trying to pull out of his head.

He called on his doctor, Wells E. A. Forde, who noticed little things like the fact the inside of Curley's right shoe was wearing out faster than the outside. For some reason, Curley was dragging his right foot.

He sent him to the Queen of Angels Hospital where the reason turned out to be a blood clot on the brain.

Like a lot of others, before him. Curley Lee, occupation prizefighter, was the victim of an industrial accidental - a right to the jaw.

The Doctor Was Stunned It is Curley's recollection the sovereign state of Texas paid for the electro-encephalogram which turned up "disorganization and slowing in the left parietal area a focal 'disturbance in the left parietal area." But the treatment consisted of the prescription: "You better take it easy, kid and, by the way, get used to that headache." Barely .18 months later, Dr. Forde was shocked when he picked up a paper to see where Curley was booked in for a fight at the Olympic Auditorium. He fired off a letter to the boxing commission.

"To me it would seem unthinkable that any consideration should ever be given him for subsequent boxing." He recommended a simple test: "Shake hands with Curley," he urged. His position was, a man too weak to shake hands shouldn't be asked to punch with them. The commission denied Curley a license. Curley went back to stacking potatoes. But lately, even this has become difficult. Curley has taken to suffering blackouts on the street and long red-light trips to receiving hospital where attendants first suspect drunkenness and then detect a form of epilepsy. Either way, there's not much they can do about it.

Curley is just another piece of boxing's flotsam. The walking wounded you see in the foyer any arena selling programs, cadging tickets or borrowing money. It's difficult to find any. one to take the responsibility. But I noticed in the paper the other day where the manager Cleveland Williams was complaining that the top name fighters in the country "would rather go hungry than get in the ring, with my fighter." I should hope so. It's better to be hungry than fed intravenously.
The Spokesman-Review - Google News Archive Search

 

If Ali trained for the Wepner fight and came into the ring in the same condition as his previous fight the fight would have lasted as long as Ali wanted it to and not a moment more.

 

Not I. Anything can happen in the ring, but no. Nel. Nyet.

 

Wilder is the most overhyped top contender in my lifetime. Skilless aside from his right hand. Listons jab would knock Wilder down. Liston scores a ten count KO in 2-3 rounds.

 

I’m not understanding your line of thinking/questioning you agree there are guys Patterson size at 168lbs so the answer is just the hard punchers at 168lbs… you have to let go of the label “super middleweight” and realise these guys would fight at 175lbs-HW till up to about the 70s. Gerald McCeallan most likely hit as hard as Patterson… Daniel Jacob’s and him probably have a good fight lol this modern weight cutting has changed boxing.

 

I already told you, the mileage.

I don't think you understand my point here, listing the damage on Wepner only makes it more humiliating that Liston couldn't put the guy away and his corner had to stop him.

Wilder's 2nd and 3rd fight with Fury gave him more damage than Liston took in his entire life.

 

His fight with Fury where Fury licked the blood on his ear could have killed boxing.

 

Liston has more heart and courage then Widler… he quit on the stool and his feat is surviving a 175lber… Wilder went out on his shield and fought 240lbs to 280lbs guys…

Liston has more skills - he was almost KO’d by his eras smaller, less successful Wilder and his best opponents he outweighed by 15-20lbs Machen was injured, Folley was glass and Patterson was a natural 175lber… some insist 168lber… what would we say if Wilder fought those guys?

Liston has a great chin… he had to KO the not very good Williams fast because he felt threatened by his power and believed he was going to be iced… then he was drummed into submission (quitting) by Ali a very average puncher and beaten so easily in the rerun folks prefer to cry fix lol, Wilder proved his chin far more Fury, Ortiz, Parker…

Liston has moar powa “I have quotes and zero impressive KO’s on his resume, there’s… Folley and Patterson and ah - Williams” all known to be famously quite average to glass Wilder touch of death’d guys you wouldn’t let fight Patterson in this day and age.

I’m not saying Liston would lose, most likely IMO but Liston is a better boxer but this would be easily the hardest fight of his career… when the going got tough he sat on his stool and didn’t rise to the occasion, his entire fight plan revolved around typically being the “big” guy, this bout he’s being overmatched physically as was the case of the less good Williams who almost KO’d him.

 

Oh come on....do you really think McClellan could have sparked out Johansson the way Floyd did ?
Come on man, be serious.