Would anyone pick Wilder to beat Liston??

This is non-sense.

1. Liston was shot and in his 40s when he fought Wepner.

2. He didn't remain on his feet. Liston knocked him down in the 5th. Ten rounds earlier than Ali "But Ali got a full 10 count lolz" What the **** do you think were to happen if the ref hadn't stopped the fight? Wepner was a mess, couldn't see, and couldn't defend himself. He wouldn't have made it anywhere near the 15th in that condition.

 

1. Nice job bringing up the age once the previous narrative of this being impressive died down.

2. Yup, and then Wepner got up. He got his face broken, cuts that required 72 stitches and he was still on his feet before he RTD'd. Almighty Liston couldn't keep Wepner down then failed to put him down again after a horrific beating. What would happen if the fight went on? Wepner would probably bleed out before Liston put him down again.

 

Ok,what if there is.How many 168 lbs guys could replicate the raw power of Floyd Patterson.

 

It was impressive because of his age. Not in spite of it. Wepner likely doesn't see the fifth against a peak Liston.

So now we're faulting Liston because Wepner was in significantly worse shape against him than he was against Ali by round nine?

In your honest opinion (if possible), would Wepner have remained on his feet for another 6 rounds?

As for Wilder knocking out Wepner in the first, he would not have done it in his 40s. He needed 7 rounds to put away a generic club fighter, and even then it wasn't a KTFO, it was more of a "I'm bored,let's just go home" from the ref.

 

Would you like to prove that any boxer is in the top 20 punchers at a particular weight ? It's an
inexact science to say the least.The numerous accolades attributed to the power of Cleveland Williams's
punches are proof that Williams was a great puncher.Anyone who could take his punches and avoid
hitting deck had to have a first-rate chin.Please bear in mind I never stated that Williams was in the top 20
heavyweight punchers in history.The figure of 20 was referenced by the poster who I was replying to.

 

You really are guillty of hyperbole.Wilder literally killing Wepner in the first round ? Calm down mate, lets
keep the within the bounds of reason.
Yes there many guys in your list who I suspect are harder punchers than Cleveland but certainly not all of
them.
Should Joe Frazier be criticised for failing to drop Bonavena in their two fights while Jimmy Ellis dropped
Bonavena twice ?

 

Totally agree.

Trying to throw shade on Liston for the Wepner fight and by way of comparing that fight with Ali’s own bout vs Wepner some 6 years later is completely disingenuous.

Liston was already 38 yo per his official DOB but likely several years older against Chuck in reality.

Sonny was also a known alcohol and drug abuser who was found dead from a drug overdose just 6 months after the Wepner fight.

By the time Wepner fought Ali, he was 36 yo himself - 3 years older than Ali. Ali hit Chuck with some very good shots to finish it but Wepner was also clearly exhausted by the 15th round at any rate.

The fight vs Liston could’ve (should’ve) been stopped several rounds earlier but Chuck pleaded with both the ref and his corner to allow him several more rounds.

Liston famously remarked after the fight that he didn’t know who was more brave - Wepner or his manager.

 

We're faulting Liston because Wepner regardless of the shape he was in didn't get KO'd by his supposed mountain-toppling punches.

No, he would bleed out as I said.

Wilder has 50 times the mileage Liston had against Wepner.

 

Name literally just one guy on that list that Cleveland hits harder than. Just one.

OT: Just realized I never gave a reasoning for Wilder vs Liston. Liston had slow feet and his style worked a lot around his reach and jab. Wilder for all his faults is very good at controlling the distance, has a decent jab and had incredible timing on that right hand. Liston probably wins most of the early rounds with his jab then randomly gets countered over the top with a right hand that sleeps him for a week.

 

I pick Lennox Lewis to beat both of them.

 

Good post.What you say is particularly relevant to the heavyweight-division which has a long history
of huge punchers.

 

''Sleeps him for a week '' ? Looks like you've been drinking from the old hyperbole bottle again. Now what part
of the statement that I made when I stated that it was impossible to provide empirical evidence that some heavyweights punched harder than others that made it so difficult for you to understand ?
Tell you what, let's take look at what the Ring magazine had to say about Cleveland Williams:

' If not for Sonny Liston's fearsome left hook Williams' straight right might have been the heavyweight punch of the 1950s and 1960s.

I know you wont like this praise for the punching power of Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston but there you go, the words of the most authoritative boxing magazine in history,

 

Again, he was in his 40s and a shot fighter. At least Wepner actually made it into the top ten ratings. Herdon is not even a top 50 fighter, and Wilder failed to KO him. What's your excuse for that?

And what the **** happens if he bleeds out? Is he going to be conscious? Even if you take away the cuts, his eyes were nearly shut, he was exhausted, he’d already been dropped, and was taking a beating round after round.

Please. Liston had 264 rounds to Wilder' s 187. Liston was busy clearing out the division while Wilder's manufactured resume had more padding than a mattress.

He fought four elite opponents Fury, Parker, Zhang, and Ortiz, and only beat one of them.

 

Roy Harris (who fought Sonny Liston and sparred with Cleveland Williams),"my toughest opponent and most dangerous was when I sparred with Cleveland williams."http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

"But at one point in his career, he would have spelled real problems for Ali, because at his height as a puncher, Cleveland Williams hit harder than Liston. Before he got shot, the man was awesome. But afterwards, he wasn't much of a fighter. " Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=DfcPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq="williams+hit+harder+than+liston"&source=bl&ots=U_vhYf34f8&sig=ACfU3U0-9tFME4JqtaE-xx34tjfj1d-8XA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqlYTguIHqAhUeRDABHQPoDhYQ6AEwAXoECAMQAQ

Ernie Terrell (Who fought Williams twice and sparred with Liston)
His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en
:"He was the strongest fighter I ever fought"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion
"His left hook is poison."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en
"I fought Williams (Cassius Clay's Monday night victim Cleveland Williams twice and I thought that man hit harder than even Liston. But the years were very much on Clay's side." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57503132/calgary-herald/

Sonny Liston:......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
"He hit as hard as I could."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ

"two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news

"Asked to compare Clay and Williams, Daniels said Monday: There's no comparison. Williams hits much harder. I'd fight Clay every night in the week. But that Williams man, he's a load of dynamite." Article clipped from The Salt Lake Tribune - Newspapers.com

Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams has the punch. Some say he hits harder than Sonny Liston. Others go further and claim the Big Cat can hit a man with more force than Joe Louis.

"The big cat is credited with breaking one man's back with a blow to the midsection, punishing Billy Daniels so badly that Daniels has never been the same fighter since, and hitting young Jack Johnson so hard that a blood vessel ruptured in Johnson's forehead."

Article clipped from Carlsbad Current-Argus - Newspapers.com

Ending the career of Tommy Fields with a terrific beating April 7, 1964. Henry Armstrong said Fields was one of the best defensive fighters he had ever seen. Handing Sonny Banks such a merciless beating July' 21, 1964. that might have been responsible for Banks death in his next fight.

Bill Davee, who was in Williams' corner, said Williams gave Banks a murderous beating for five rounds, but did not finish him. Davee said he told Williams after the fifth to finish Banks for his (Banks) own good. Williams knocked him out in the sixth.

Article clipped from The York Dispatch - Newspapers.com

"Curley Lee suffering from incurable brain damage incurred in the Cleveland Williams bout went to a life of crime and murder and is serving time in Napa's hospital for the criminally insane." Fallen Copper - Chap Riese - Google Books

The knockout had the crowd' in stitches. Curley got knocked so high in the air he was horizontal when he crashed to the floor. Also unconscious. Another 'couple of feet and he might have escaped the gravitational and been up there yet. He was out for 20 minutes. They took him to the hospital where they shone lights in his eyes and "recommended a good night's sleep. Curley had already had one. When he got back to L.A.. he thought perhaps he had a bad head cold because every time he blew his nose it brought blood. He had the sensation his eyes were trying to pull out of his head.

He called on his doctor, Wells E. A. Forde, who noticed little things like the fact the inside of Curley's right shoe was wearing out faster than the outside. For some reason, Curley was dragging his right foot.

He sent him to the Queen of Angels Hospital where the reason turned out to be a blood clot on the brain.

Like a lot of others, before him. Curley Lee, occupation prizefighter, was the victim of an industrial accidental - a right to the jaw.

The Doctor Was Stunned It is Curley's recollection the sovereign state of Texas paid for the electro-encephalogram which turned up "disorganization and slowing in the left parietal area a focal 'disturbance in the left parietal area." But the treatment consisted of the prescription: "You better take it easy, kid and, by the way, get used to that headache." Barely .18 months later, Dr. Forde was shocked when he picked up a paper to see where Curley was booked in for a fight at the Olympic Auditorium. He fired off a letter to the boxing commission.

"To me it would seem unthinkable that any consideration should ever be given him for subsequent boxing." He recommended a simple test: "Shake hands with Curley," he urged. His position was, a man too weak to shake hands shouldn't be asked to punch with them. The commission denied Curley a license. Curley went back to stacking potatoes. But lately, even this has become difficult. Curley has taken to suffering blackouts on the street and long red-light trips to receiving hospital where attendants first suspect drunkenness and then detect a form of epilepsy. Either way, there's not much they can do about it.

Curley is just another piece of boxing's flotsam. The walking wounded you see in the foyer any arena selling programs, cadging tickets or borrowing money. It's difficult to find any. one to take the responsibility. But I noticed in the paper the other day where the manager Cleveland Williams was complaining that the top name fighters in the country "would rather go hungry than get in the ring, with my fighter." I should hope so. It's better to be hungry than fed intravenously.
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