Is Lennox Lewis the most skilled "giant" in boxing history?

I don't feel that I'm expert enough on Quarry's style to answer that question, but I will say that Frazier is a good example to use. Frazier is interesting because he is among the best example of a swarmer on film and he is a heavy, which is perhaps unique to Joe. I think that Frazier is a better infighter than Wlad is an outfighter but that both are heavily compromised as being very skilled fighters with their shortfalls at ranges other those at which they are expert.

Frazier is more skilled than Wladimir but neither is an example of a highly skilled technician - both have too many technical deficiencies for that to be true.

Foreman is difficult because his skillset changed over the course of his career, but nineties Foreman might be a very good example of what @cross_trainer is talking about. Overall, I'd have to spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not Foreman is more skilled than Wladimir. Both have serious shortfalls but Foreman has that jab, which might rescue him.

I have, multiple times, but I will again. Mastery of all skills in boxing is better than mastery of very limited skills in boxing.

This is self-evident.

Yeah, you did. What you said was that a fighter who has mastered limited aspects of boxing and made that aspect the defining aspect of themselves in the ring to the point where their deficiencies don't matter is more skilled to you than a fighter who has mastered all aspects of boxing to some unidentified degree that is, to you, "below" the fighter of mastery in one area.

This is absolutely a perfect definition of what happened with Deontay Wilder. But, we'll leave Wilder there unless you don't want to.

Again:

The most skilled fighters are the ones who are most skilled in all aspects?

Aren't they? Obviously?

 

Let it lead to this then:

Do you think that Wladimir is more skilled having the skillset he had, or the skillset he had plus all of Roberto Duran's skills?

And do you think having all these extra skills would help him as a fighter?

I'll be cheeky and answer for you: you believe he would be more skillful. And you believe that all these extra skills would help him. And that is true for every fighter. So skills gaps that might somehow not matter in your original definition of skill - they would, wouldn't they?

 

Yes, you can add whatever fighter you like though. Riddick Bowe or Evander Holyfield, or Joe Louis or Lennox Lewis, as he's relevant to the thread. The point I am making is that you are making a specific claim. Correct me, but basically your claim is that a fighter's skill is about gaps - but only when those gaps matter in terms of what you've seen during their career. What I am saying to you is that this is badly flawed specifically because of our negative proof chat. Think about it. If Wladimir had Riddick Bowe's infighting ability he would be a more skilled fighter. You can imagine for yourself, i'm sure, instances where having these skills would have aided Wladimir in his losses, and in his wins, to enhance his legacy and standing on the forum.

It should be obvious enough really, that being more skilled in areas where he has very little skill would dramatically improve him as a fighter in a way that mattered for his skillset. I mean - it's a little ridiculous having to say it.

Perhaps i'm mistaken in your defnintion.

 

Yeah, he was better than most of the guys he fought - except when he wasn't. If he was more skilled, he'd have done better a lot of the time. He has a lot of skillgaps, as i've said several times now, more than most heavies in his class. He was less skilled than his peers (great or near great heavyweights) because of these skillgaps.

 

He did develop a skillset that was built around his weaknesses and protecting them which is also all but unique in heavyweight history, but no, what you have written isn't true. If Wladimir knew how to say, feint himself into position on the inside, that doesn't make it more likely for him to be hit. It's not like every skill involves landing a lead right hand to a southpaw's body. The type of refinement of infighting that goes on at the lower weights doesn't make a world-class fighter with elite skill more likely to be hit, it makes him less likely to be hit.

I will say that for whatever reason, Wlad's clinching went almost completely unpunished (compared to Lennox Lewis, say) and that he was right to mine that for all that it was worth, but in the broadest possible sense that makes him a less adaptable and worse fighter than the alternative - either way.

 

While we normally do find lots to disagree about when it comes to Wladimir especially, this is a really good point. When we talk about physical memory and true technique what were talking about is the sort of excellence that outstrips that fatigue to become second nature. AJ was such a potentially enormous victory for Wladimir, the very limited nature of his repertoire, of his fundamental technique, did paralysis him at a point where he might have won the crucial fight.