¿Who was physically stronger between George Foreman and Jack Johnson?

So what proof do you have they're juicing?

 

lol I don’t have any for some bodybuilders either or at one time Lance Armstrong… you’re right it’s blind slander, millionaire pro athletes would never use performance enhancing drugs it’s unchristian, I’m making a formal apology to Norton, Bakole, Holyfield and whoever else I’ve accused of such a terrible thing - what proof do you have Rex Layne is bum? No “backing up”

 

He was winning in the clinches. You can't do it without being stronger. But of course there are different types of strenght.

 

I’ll go with what Ali said straight after Foreman knocked out Norton.

There is no universe where Ali was as physically strong as Foreman.

 

If you go with what Ali is saying then you have to admit Foreman was weaker? - Ali himself said he was stronger then Foreman… said Foreman didn’t really hit that hard too, that the newspapers had everybody fooled.

 

The pre-fight comments are most likely to be correct.

Their respective records, especially against common opponents tells the story. But as I recall you don’t think especially highly of Foreman and don’t tend to give him very much credit (if I have mistaken you for another poster please accept my apologies).

 

It’s me you’re thinking of brother but no biggie - Ali post fight said Foreman wasn’t as strong, noted that he handled him in the clinches and made him look bad (true) Ali quite openly said he didn’t hit hard immediately after (true)… we are willing to hear “Carnera had nothing” but when it’s Foreman? Let’s be critical for a second here to understand why I don’t rate Foreman - he was moved very fast he had very, very little time in the pros by 74 he’d been a pro about 4 years mostly running over “cans” to make up for his lack of amateur exp then he hit the stylistic jackpot with an unconfident sort of fighter in Norton who was easy to find and a rapidly declining very small Frazier… old timers used to say decision losses were more valuable then 1st rd KO’s bringing a guy up… Moore himself talked about so much latent potential being wasted… Foreman had basically one stiff fight and it was against a LHW who was no threat and that was it, unseasoned he was absolutely GREEN - Ali had been boxing for near on 20 years, Ali knew the tricks and spent many years clinching, wrestling around in the ring and conditioning himself and his skills for boxing he was a real pro and dispatched of him easily as George was a big strong novice nothing more… and yet we are meant to believe he beats Tyson, Holyfield, Lennox, Wlad, Louis, Holmes or is 50-50? Crazy talk IMO looking at his skill set, size, experience… circling back Ali absolutely was stronger then George as is expressed in the ring… in static strength a “lift off” George looks a bit more muscular he probably has it (90% sure) but that’s not definitive even as we have nothing to go on.

 

Not at all lmao, you have a narrative in mind and twist everything to make it forcefully fit. That "LHW" got stopped by Foreman in the rematch a year later, and he was ranked #10 in 1969. Beating a #10 ranked opponent is amazing considering Foreman's experience at the time.

Norton got outboxed before Foreman even bullied him physically. Frazier had more trouble dodging his jab then he did with Ali's, got hit with literally everything Foreman threw and missed with his left hook the whole night. He was expected to make Foreman cry before the match. Ali was visibly getting overpowered in the clinches early on and had to clinch and hold Foreman by the neck again and again to make him settle. He could never treat Norton and Frazier like Foreman did in any of their matches.

 

The “rapidly declining” Frazier who had just turned 29 and was the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world? The rapidly declining Frazier who, after being destroyed by Foreman promptly went on to beat Bugner, Quarry and Ellis as well as going another 26 rounds with Ali?

I can accept you disagreeing with me. I don’t even particularly have an issue with you not rating Foreman but man, your dislike for the guy is stopping you from putting your case forward with any balance whatsoever. To essentially say that Frazier was washed when Foreman got him the first time is a straight up fabrication of the truth.

And Foreman was stronger than Ali. He hit harder too. That’s opion of course but so close to being factually correct that it’s not an opinion that is broadly enough disputed as to suggest that it’s even debatable. Ali literally acknowledged this after Foreman’s fight with Norton in a ringside interview with Howard Cosell. Ali’s post rumble in the jungle comments were clearly meant in the context of what he was expecting but you also dismiss the fact that Ali let Foreman punch himself into the ground. He gassed Foreman but he certainly didn’t beat him up.

 

He's perfectly fine with contradicting himself saying Frazier was washed up, and yet could still win or remain competitive with several notable fighters of that era because he doesn't think highly of Ali either.

He would rather run through a field of landmines than give Foreman credit for beating Frazier, and that's why basically anyone who has read his posts can quickly poke holes in his logic.

 

Frazier was a big drinker and had been touring around with his hobby band… look at who he’d defended the belt against and his weight for Foreman and the two “defences” prior he wasn’t taking it seriously, after Foreman he didn’t really do much did he? He went 3-3 and two of the wins were over guys he already beat who were shot themselves, Ellis’s 2nd to last fight who went 0-1-3 and that’s not including almost having his head ripped off by Shavers, Quarry was basically at the end and being carefully managed this fight was near 4-5 years overdue…he’d go 1-1 then return in 77 to beat “Sugar” Zanon and retire. I know this is dismissive but Bugner wasn’t any good, respectfully, some folks had that fight very close too which isn’t a good symptom - it’s my 0.2$ but Fraziers last effort was against Ali he didn’t even look great in the two “defences” before Foreman from memory, writing was on the wall his management were holding the belt hostage which is why a big green novice got that fight. I don’t dislike Foreman why would I? I just don’t think he’s very good, nothing wrong with that as I articulate my thoughts fine.

 

He didn’t need to / wouldn’t treat Frazier and Norton like Foreman did? They fought nothing alike but he locked them up fine enough in clinches, Ali noted he was stronger, Dundee too, film confirms it he man handled Foreman in that bout. Yes his only stiff fight before Ali was 1 top ten ranked guy who was a LHW… we agree, basically he was an unseasoned, green, novice.

 

Foreman was fine. He had boxed 121 rounds in his pro career before the Ali fight.

Ezzard Charles had boxed 111 rounds when he beat a P4P ATG in Teddy Yarosz, 121 when he beat a former Light Heavyweight champ in Christoforidis (who took Jimmy Bivins' 0) and 124 rounds when he drew with an 160 fight veteran in Ken Overlin (who had boxed over 1200 rounds in his career). His amateur career was no lengthier than Foreman's either, and his only stiff fight prior to Yarosz was 10 rounds with Overlin, hardly that much of a difference maker compared to the Foreman that Ali fought.

It's not as if Charles magically absorbed Overlin's 160 fights worth of experience

 

He didn't, Frazier constantly walked him down to the ropes and literally grabbed him from the wrists and pulled him away from the ropes in their first match. Ali could barely handle Norton in the clinch as well. Foreman threw both around the ring like a kid.

It doesn't, Foreman very clearly had a strength edge he kept until the later rounds where he gassed. And Ali's "manhandling" was basically jumping on Foreman's neck and holding for dear life.

Yeah, about 3-4 years before he went up against Norton and Frazier. He was a completely different fighter by that point. Not liking Foreman is fine, just have the guts to be honest about it.

 

Wasn’t Teddy basically finished at the time? I don’t know pretty much anything about that guy but someone in there 2nd to last fight and on the cusp of losing an 8 rounder isnt the same as a very good version of Muhammad Ali vs a green heavyweight is it? - that fight with Overlin would’ve done more for Charles then Foreman had when he ran over Norton and Frazier… look at Toney pre and post McCallum, you need a guy that good to go the rounds and apply the craft you have in sparring to a fighting environment. Let’s also not say green fighters can’t beat guys they shouldn’t either, calling it as it is, Foreman was green Charles might’ve been too, both were talented and had extreme success relative to there experience but they are what they are.