¿Who was physically stronger between George Foreman and Jack Johnson?

Not at all lmao, you have a narrative in mind and twist everything to make it forcefully fit. That "LHW" got stopped by Foreman in the rematch a year later, and he was ranked #10 in 1969. Beating a #10 ranked opponent is amazing considering Foreman's experience at the time.

Norton got outboxed before Foreman even bullied him physically. Frazier had more trouble dodging his jab then he did with Ali's, got hit with literally everything Foreman threw and missed with his left hook the whole night. He was expected to make Foreman cry before the match. Ali was visibly getting overpowered in the clinches early on and had to clinch and hold Foreman by the neck again and again to make him settle. He could never treat Norton and Frazier like Foreman did in any of their matches.

 

The “rapidly declining” Frazier who had just turned 29 and was the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world? The rapidly declining Frazier who, after being destroyed by Foreman promptly went on to beat Bugner, Quarry and Ellis as well as going another 26 rounds with Ali?

I can accept you disagreeing with me. I don’t even particularly have an issue with you not rating Foreman but man, your dislike for the guy is stopping you from putting your case forward with any balance whatsoever. To essentially say that Frazier was washed when Foreman got him the first time is a straight up fabrication of the truth.

And Foreman was stronger than Ali. He hit harder too. That’s opion of course but so close to being factually correct that it’s not an opinion that is broadly enough disputed as to suggest that it’s even debatable. Ali literally acknowledged this after Foreman’s fight with Norton in a ringside interview with Howard Cosell. Ali’s post rumble in the jungle comments were clearly meant in the context of what he was expecting but you also dismiss the fact that Ali let Foreman punch himself into the ground. He gassed Foreman but he certainly didn’t beat him up.

 

He's perfectly fine with contradicting himself saying Frazier was washed up, and yet could still win or remain competitive with several notable fighters of that era because he doesn't think highly of Ali either.

He would rather run through a field of landmines than give Foreman credit for beating Frazier, and that's why basically anyone who has read his posts can quickly poke holes in his logic.

 

Frazier was a big drinker and had been touring around with his hobby band… look at who he’d defended the belt against and his weight for Foreman and the two “defences” prior he wasn’t taking it seriously, after Foreman he didn’t really do much did he? He went 3-3 and two of the wins were over guys he already beat who were shot themselves, Ellis’s 2nd to last fight who went 0-1-3 and that’s not including almost having his head ripped off by Shavers, Quarry was basically at the end and being carefully managed this fight was near 4-5 years overdue…he’d go 1-1 then return in 77 to beat “Sugar” Zanon and retire. I know this is dismissive but Bugner wasn’t any good, respectfully, some folks had that fight very close too which isn’t a good symptom - it’s my 0.2$ but Fraziers last effort was against Ali he didn’t even look great in the two “defences” before Foreman from memory, writing was on the wall his management were holding the belt hostage which is why a big green novice got that fight. I don’t dislike Foreman why would I? I just don’t think he’s very good, nothing wrong with that as I articulate my thoughts fine.

 

He didn’t need to / wouldn’t treat Frazier and Norton like Foreman did? They fought nothing alike but he locked them up fine enough in clinches, Ali noted he was stronger, Dundee too, film confirms it he man handled Foreman in that bout. Yes his only stiff fight before Ali was 1 top ten ranked guy who was a LHW… we agree, basically he was an unseasoned, green, novice.

 

Foreman was fine. He had boxed 121 rounds in his pro career before the Ali fight.

Ezzard Charles had boxed 111 rounds when he beat a P4P ATG in Teddy Yarosz, 121 when he beat a former Light Heavyweight champ in Christoforidis (who took Jimmy Bivins' 0) and 124 rounds when he drew with an 160 fight veteran in Ken Overlin (who had boxed over 1200 rounds in his career). His amateur career was no lengthier than Foreman's either, and his only stiff fight prior to Yarosz was 10 rounds with Overlin, hardly that much of a difference maker compared to the Foreman that Ali fought.

It's not as if Charles magically absorbed Overlin's 160 fights worth of experience

 

He didn't, Frazier constantly walked him down to the ropes and literally grabbed him from the wrists and pulled him away from the ropes in their first match. Ali could barely handle Norton in the clinch as well. Foreman threw both around the ring like a kid.

It doesn't, Foreman very clearly had a strength edge he kept until the later rounds where he gassed. And Ali's "manhandling" was basically jumping on Foreman's neck and holding for dear life.

Yeah, about 3-4 years before he went up against Norton and Frazier. He was a completely different fighter by that point. Not liking Foreman is fine, just have the guts to be honest about it.

 

Wasn’t Teddy basically finished at the time? I don’t know pretty much anything about that guy but someone in there 2nd to last fight and on the cusp of losing an 8 rounder isnt the same as a very good version of Muhammad Ali vs a green heavyweight is it? - that fight with Overlin would’ve done more for Charles then Foreman had when he ran over Norton and Frazier… look at Toney pre and post McCallum, you need a guy that good to go the rounds and apply the craft you have in sparring to a fighting environment. Let’s also not say green fighters can’t beat guys they shouldn’t either, calling it as it is, Foreman was green Charles might’ve been too, both were talented and had extreme success relative to there experience but they are what they are.

 

The thing is, Foreman wasn't really trying to out muscle Ali. He was content to let Ali grab his neck because his main goal was to target the body anyways. He knew not to bother going for too many head shots because of Ali's head movement and slipping ability, so he wanted to drain his stamina and kill the legs to prevent dancing with body shots.

His mistake was underestimating Ali's resilience, ability to roll with the punches, and counter against the ropes. Ali's gas tank and will to win were incredible and Foreman punched himself out going full throttle from the start. It's not as if Ali and Foreman were in a constant grapple match or game of mercy testing their raw strength and leverage against each other.

 

Terrific post.

 

I’ve done this rodeo too many times, I’m not bothering you could basically find answers to this in dozens of posts I’ve written… I don’t know what you want me to say, what do you mean by “not liking Foreman” I’ve already said I think the 70s version is hysterically overrated? I have nothing against GF the man, I’d rather you not question my “guts” over sports opinions when I don’t know you from a bar of soap buddy lol.

 

Foreman may have been stronger than Ali but Ali outmanned and outmuscled him in the ring. Fact.

 

Still superb for a guy with no more than 20 fights, especially as Yarosz beat Lloyd Marshall a year prior.

You basically said it yourself right there, if you've got the goods, you've simply got the goods. And while Foreman wasn't some Superman or some underrated technician that secretly had an educated left hand on the same level as Canto or whatever, he was a pretty darn good fighter. Ali just happened to have superior clinch skills and he couldn't fight his fight, styles make fights and **** happens.

 

Yes so the guy was at the end when Charles beat him… he also drew with Overlin after, then beat Burley 2x a smaller guy but a feat to credit to a mix of GOAT level talent, new seasoning and physicality I’ll also be willing to bet he was a much, much better boxer and learnt in the gym what Foreman never did, good teacher can make all the difference, Toney early on knew as much as some long time pros. GF was green just like I said in the beginning, right stuff was laid at birth and in the gym for him to beat Frazier and Norton… but he didn’t have a developed enough or deep enough skill set for someone who had over a decade of boxing on him, his stiffest challenge before Ali was a LHW who was no threat… Charles was hit or miss throughout the period before he became who he was, Foreman never had that on the way to the title, after losing to Ali he looked like he was on the way to being built into a good fighter Lyle, Frazier 2, Le Doux, Dino Denis and Young looks like an inconsistent period but really he was refining, learning patience, picking his shots etc trying stuff out - against Young he looked better then he did with Ali he managed to hurt Young in the 7th and almost finish, GF also lasted till the 15th and didn’t punch himself out, that fights a credit to him and would’ve made him a better fighter if he chugged on, real pros are built off those experiences that was the way Charles did it and many more… GF was champion but not ready for it, not a true professional yet he was more like Toney when he was running everyone over (though obviously nowhere near as skilled…) a raw piece of talent who didn’t understand real fighting yet but that’s easier to get away with at HW.

 

Show us the footage. I sure as **** didn’t see Ali doing anything other than grabbing George around the neck and holding for dear life. On the contrary I saw plenty of George bulling Ali into the ropes and shoving him off him when Ali was grabbing hold.

Outmanned and outmuscled? Revisionist bullspit.