Oleksandr Usyk vs Muhammad Ali primes

Precisely this as far as I'm concerned. This is not to take anything away from Usyk who's the best heavy of his generation.

 

Micheal Hunter was a good fighter a 210-220lbs 6ft2 guy at his best… better than Cooper, Bonavena and D Jones.

 

Much better then Karl Mildenberger a mediocre southpaw who gave prime Ali some trouble

 

I need to hear about this lead right hand before my decision is final on the matter, it gets brought up all the time in this match up, I’m waiting to be taught why it matters so much? KM basically couldn’t beat Ali because his chin was too good his feints just didn’t work anymore, it’s why Chuvalo walked through Ali da feints couldn’t trick him any longer he transcended boxing itself with his lovecraftian chin which could not be fooled by such human games.

 

Apparently if you're fast enough and your chin is good enough feints don't matter and you can just spam straight right hands to win. We really need to tell Grey and Pat this cheatcode I'm sure they'll put it to good use

 

Ali walked through the punches of George Foreman, Sonny Liston and Earnie Shavers. So bringing up Cooper is absurd. And he didn't lose to Jones. Besides that was very very early. He had less experience at that stage than Usyk did at the Olympics.

Usyk arguably lost to Beterbiev at the Olympics despite having 300 amateur fights. He literally had to pretend he was hit in the back by Beterbiev when it was a legitimate shot.

Feints work not only to disrupt rhythm but to threaten an opponent with big punches that can hurt him. Usyk can't hurt Ali so his feints will not work. Ali will simply ignore feints and beat him to the punch.

Nothing in Ali's toolkit that he hasn't seen? Ok. Where are all the fast handed fighters he has fought besides Hunter? The only time he faced a really quick handed fighter, he struggled with the speed. And luckily for him, Hunter does not have the work rate that Ali or Holmes did. Their ability to sustain it for a whole fight is something he hasn't seen.

Usyk has nought fought anyone who has the strengths Ali has. He does not need to anticipate Usyk's punches at all. He will fire lead rights first and get there with timing to spare.

Seriously. Folks are getting way way too carried away. Usyk is very good vs big strong slow heavyweights who can't sustain high work rates. He is highly unproven vs athletic small fast fighters as well as quality pressure fighters.

 

No no, not speed, it’s your chin which prevents feints working - that’s important to remember.

 

Feints are more effective when one fighter has the power to hurt the other fighter. Usyk does not have enough offense to seriously bother Ali. So his fenting isn't going to be as effective.

Southpaws are open to lead right hands if the other fighter has the durability and speed to throw it consistently. No one is saying that the lead right hand alone will win the fight. Just that it is a serious scoring shot and one that Usyk will struggle with.

 

Yep never in doubt

 

I think this whole forum has gotten carried away with Ali who was the original hype master - he is a genuine GREAT with the capital G but H2H he is worse then we pretend on closer inspection, it stuck so now it’s sacrilege to call it as it is… Ali was usually bigger and better then his opponents Ellis, Patterson, Quarry, Folley, Liston etc the ones who were around his size he struggled with MIGHTLY… Norton x3, Lyle and Young (yes he was fat for Young) he struggled immensely with Doug Jones all like 190lns of him, Karl M another teeny guy and was dropped in his prime by Enry Cooper HARD… the GOAT got into the roughest fight of his career against a 5ft10 210lbs guy and lost badly - Frazier got ran over by Foreman while already on the downward spiral as a heavy drinker and Ali clinched him ILLEGALLY to death in the 2nd fight JF was shot, 3rd fight they were both beyond shot. Against Bonavena he resorted to literally sucker punching the guy on F-ing film, that bout should be reviewed endlessly to remind people what a Prime Ali looked like against a small and basically okay contender…EVEN his exile is overinflated he was in training the whole time… I’m not gonna dox people but I know that for a fact, Futch said it, Norton said it, Ellis said it and Bugner said it he was boxing at a minimum since 69.

 

Dude, what are you talking about? That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how feints work. A feint's primary job is to create hesitation and disrupt rhythm, which works whether you have 1-punch knockout power or not because it forces a reaction. If Ali "ignores" a feinted jab, he gets hit with the real one. If he reacts to a feinted power shot, he's left out of position for Usyk's real attack. A master boxer cannot just ignore feints without getting picked apart especially a fighter who fights at range on the backfoot like Ali. And this idea that Ali would just walk someone down is a complete fantasy. Did he ignore Ken Norton's jab and awkward rhythm? No, Norton wasn't a huge power puncher, but he broke Ali's jaw and beat him by messing with his timing. You're describing a fictional, invincible character, not the real Muhammad Ali who could be troubled by fighters who disrupted his rhythm.

 

How do you set up a lead right hand? How will Ali do it? - why will it work against Usyk? Everything is more effective when you can hurt the other guy… wtf does that mean? Basically a feint works fine on everybody, it’s the most important part of boxing… Ali in particular it can work VERY well because he pulled back and skipped away from shots right into the ropes not saying that’s what Usyk would do to Ali but he bit on feints quite dramatically IMO.

 

What's wrong with mid 30s

 

I had to stop reading this post when you said the Doug Jones (or Henry Cooper) fights were too early to judge Ali on and then went on to mention the Beterbiev Usyk fight in the amateurs. Can't go beyond that.

 

Amateurs? He had 300 amateur fights. These guys were fully fledged pros fighting in the amateurs after so many fights.