First and foremost, let me preface all this by saying that I think that Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all time. But that does not mean that he is without flaws First, from a technical level. He could be caught with the left hook (Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Fraizer) Second, he had a weak uppercut. Didn't go to the body a lot. Not a huge power puncher (right hand strong but not amazing. Never really hurt anyone with a left hook) He also relied heavily on reflexes, which made him a lot more hitable in his 2nd title run From a career standpoint, he lost the fight of the century to Joe Frazier. This is not a huge knock because Joe Frazier is also one of the greatest heavyweights ever, but is still a knock nonetheless. You can make a case that this was the only time Ali fought a prime Joe Frazier Ali overlooked Ken Norton in the first fight, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks in the first fight This is a flaw as a champion History has Ali at 2-1 vs Norton but I dont think he won any of those 3 fights (I have Ali 0-2-1) I dont really even factor in Alis last 2 losses to Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick because Ali was obviously beyond shot by that point. Ali is the heavyweight goat but hes not without flaws and can be surpassed.
Ali was very lucky to fight Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Jimmy Young and Lyle and come out with a 7-2 record. Whatever flaws in Alis resume though only Foreman and Louis are really close enough for it to matter IMO.
Because he saved the world from Tyson fanboys when he came closer to knocking Holyfield out then Tyson did. Foreman also did better than Ali against their common opponents not just Frazier and Norton but guys like Wepner. So hes the most direct beneficary of this stat.
Not continuing on and being a factor in the 1980's. He did very well against Berbick and could have grabbed a strap with true dedication to training.
Ok but I mean in the sense he beat Foreman quite clearly and knocked him out like it wasn't a controversy.
IMO, Ali never improved, he was as good for the first Liston fight as he ever was. Ali's competition in the 60s was so far behind him, he was bigger, stronger, faster, that he had no incentive to get better. If he had better competition in the 60s he might have been better prepared for the 70s when he fought bigger and better fighters. His only conclusive win in the 70s over top competition was the Foreman fight. Ali lost to Frazier when both were the best they would be, IMO, he lost 3 to Norton, the decisions in the Young and Shavers fights were controversial, then he lost to a 197 pound man with a 6-0-1 record. He only beat the fighters in "filler" fights in the 70s conclusively. The Quarry, Mathis, Blin, Dunn, Coopman, Lubbers, and Wepner types.
It was the worst night of Foremans life. Not that Ali couldn't have beaten him another night but the dominating nature of the win and the knockout was a fluke IMO. Ali needed the rematch to prove that it wasn't with Liston and he needed one to prove it with Foreman. If Foreman doesn't make his comeback Ali wouldn't be the consensus GOAT. We'd have the Holyfield and Mike Tyson church of cruiserweight evolution in full chorus. While in most peoples eyes the H2H(and the title fight records) elevates Ali above Foreman it was Foremans success that got him over the post Holmes champs. Another reason for having Foreman above Ali is I have Louis above Ali and I don't think Louis can beat Foreman whose a nightmare matchup for him. So its a package deal of sorts.
ON THIS DAY! - MUHAMMAD ALI Vs. JOE BUGNER (FIGHT HIGHLIGHTS) Ali had a good left hook. Watch the fight with Bugner. He used the left hook very effectively to bother Bugner. He just used the right hand more. Three knockdowns! Muhammad Ali vs Oscar Bonavena EPIC 15th round Archive footage The left hook at 1:34 is a fantastic shot. Bonavena had never been stopped before and he had twice gone the distance with Frazier. Ali had flaws. Far fewer than most other heavyweights though. His main flaw was not going to the body. Fair enough and worthy of criticism. The left hook is overrated. 2 of his 3 knockdowns to left hook came more early from over confidence than anything. Liston couldn't put him down with a left hook despite having one of the better left hooks in heavyweight history. Cooper couldn't put him down in the rematch. Frazier knocked him down once with the left hook but couldn't replicate it in the rematch. Foreman had a strong left and couldn't knock him down. Neither could Lyle or Shavers. Its hard to think of a heavy who faced as many great left hookers as Ali (except maybe Lewis) and only 3 knockdowns vs them, 2 of them very very early in his career, don't show a major weakness to anything.
So athletes improve by not being allowed to participate in athletics during their prime and then when they return to participation they are in the early stages of Parkinson's Disease? I'll provide a citation if you want .
With Foreman I struggle with his lack of defenses but I rate his achievement of being oldest heavyweight champ and still holding a belt at 48 extremely highly and I think it will be a while before we see that again maybe even never. But everyone has there own criteria.
You should have participated in the thread where I argued Foreman winning the heavyweight championship at 45 was one of the greatest feats in sports history. AI agreed with me. That being said the best iteration of Ali always beats the best iteration of Foreman.
Ya he would I think Ali became the consensus best HW ever after the 3rd Frazier fight I wasnt around in the 70s so I wouldnt know
