The Best Iterations Of George Foreman Versus James Toney (With A Poll)

It was L as in Loakiem, I have had the hardest time @ing you because I never figured that out lol, I’m so used to random strays at this point I guess that was a poor assumption my bad. Sorry IT mix of forgetting, life and a million notifications.

 

Ima let you know what time it is after happy hour.

 

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The funniest thing that ever happened in Greek news is when some reporters found some Power Rangers toy watches that had "it's morphin' time" written on them. In a moment of brilliance, the media assumed it was a ploy to attract kids to morphine.

 

let’s clear one thing first… stopping Toney with volume or “moar powa” isn’t happening, I already stated Toney wasn’t overpowered or knocked around / off balanced by MUCH bigger guys then GF, guys who also had better gas tanks, higher quality PED too and his inside fighting was unaffected… Rahman’s corner begged him not to go to the ropes, rewatch the fight and see why… in an effort that almost broke the Ibeabuchi punch stat record Toney was in 0 danger, as he was in the first Peter’s fight Big Bad Crusierweighr Foreman ain’t stopping him… there is much accessible evidence that George wouldn’t be able to find Toney enough before he turns into a pumpkin… look at the 2nd Frazier fight and how much an out of character Frazier basically had him at the end of his wind lol and that was with just a little movement… I have to ask how is GF applying his ability to “push around Toney”? In what sense? That’s very vague, it worked against Frazier because he hovered over his front foot bent at the waist but I’m not sure how it’d work on JT? One poster told me he’d use his long guard to manipulate Toney’s shoulder while he was rolling? lol whatever that means.

 

GGG beats Toney btw.

 

Proof ? I just rewatched the first Rahman bout and Toney absolutely got knocked around and off balance, and his in-fighting certainly got affected. He straight up lost the inside battle several times. The version of Toney you're describing is a unicorn.

None of those guys abused their physical strength the way Foreman did. They barely even utilised it, period. When they did, it was nowhere near Foreman's extent. The comparison is actually laughable side by side. Here's a bunch of timestamps of Rahman (someone noticeably weaker than Foreman) doing absolutely nothing to bully Toney around and putting almost zero effort into being physical in the clinch, or just deciding to keep it technical and thus giving the smaller Toney the opportunity to score up close (which JT seldom capitalises on, btw):

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31:57, 32:07, 32:13, 32:38, 32:50, 34:13-34:17, 34:24-:34-26, 34:32, 34:38, 34:43, 36:26, 36:37, 36:45, 38:18, 38:29, 38:49, 40:11 (gets tagged for it), 40:31, 40:38-40:47 (he's pushing him back for a moment but neither do anything about it at all, so it's pointless), 40:53, 42:39, 42:55, 43:21, 43:28, 43:54, 46:40, 46:52, 47:35, 47:56, 48:05, 48:14, 48:23 (Rahman gets tagged for throwing nothing), 48:45, 50:40, 51:00, 51:08, 51:24-51:32 (before the push), 54:25, 54:47 (gets tagged for it), 54:57, 55:12, 55:29, 56:07, 56:23, 56:57, 58:28, 58:46 (gets tagged for trying to keep it technical again), 58:51-59:00 (until he finally pushes him and tags him again), 1:02:15, 1:03:05, 1:04:35

35:25-35:38. Literally 13 seconds of Rahman just half assedly punching Toney without doing anything

35:53-36:09. Look at how he doesn't even grab Toney, he just puts his hands in grabbing position and does nothing

36:15-36:22. Look how Rahman is clearly in position to pull down Toney's head and punch it, and doesn't do it.

36:51. Look at the tiny effort Rahman puts into that spin. Toney just lets him do it because he knows Rahman doesn't pose a physical threat. He hasn't done anything to prove that he is by this point.

55:41-56:00. After Toney realises Rahman has no intention of being physical at this point in time, he even grows confident enough to do a little shove.

When he actually does put some slight effort into manhandling Toney a few times up close (still to nowhere near the extent of Foreman), Toney just kinda doesn't do anything about it and does indeed get manhandled or out-punched:

32:26, 34:18, 34:27, 35:14, 36:33, 38:16, 38:36, 38:41, 39:22, 39:31, 42:17, 42:27, 43:41 (look how Rahman pushes him off balance despite Toney having his weight on the back foot, told ya I knew from experience), 44:40, 44:45 (Foreman esque push, and Toney is sent flying), 47:04 (Toney gets tagged flush), 47:10 (Toney gets hit again), 47:50, 48:40, 50:13, 50:35, 54:13, 54:37 (barely even counts, he merely spins him), 55:09 (forearm push allows him to tag Toney), 56:44 (barely even classifies as physicality, he's just stepping forward to distrupt space), 58:38 (uses his left arm to push down JT's right, and hits him flush), 59:26 (before reverting back to keeping it technical 4 seconds later), 1:00:07, 1:02:42, 1:03:18-1:03:38, 1:03:58.

Just look. Toney is left off balance, moving backwards, stumbling, and/or tagged. Rahman doesn't even put that much effort either into most of these, and isn't as strong as Foreman anyway, but he's still managing it no problem.

I mean hell, Rahman is barely putting any strength into moving him around from 39:39-39:49 and he manages to hit him clean. He gets tagged with 2-3 shots soon after, but they're nothing burgers. Toney doesn't really throw anything meaningful until the ref saves him by breaking them at 40:06. Almost 30 seconds and Toney landed like 3 punches in a close range exchange he lost, against a guy that doesn't put a quarter of the effort that Foreman did in being physical, and is not as strong as him anyhow. Similar to 44:09-44:37, and this one's more traditional and technical in-fighting (just throwing shots at close range) rather than clinch work, and very basic one at that.

This leads us to the second half of round 6, 51:40-53:10. Rahman's leaning on Toney on the ropes, just a mere lean (not a particularly heavy one at that), certainly not anything as physically taxing as what Foreman would provide in this situation. And despite JT sneaking some good shots in, Rahman wins the exchange and the round. Toney is also spent, far more tired than Foreman was by this point in Zaire. Same thing with the exchange at 1:00:40, Toney is losing the inside battle. 1:04:41-1:05:02, same deal.

You don't "fight" Toney inside by keeping it technical, nice and tidy (it's not like Toney always wins there anyway), because it lets him rest and take a breather. You bulldoze him, abuse your power in the clinch, use your forearms, push him around, hold and hit, and pull his head down, and keep him stressed. That's not what Rahman did for most of the fight, he wanted it to be nice and technical (and still had success). The times he did get physical were mostly half assed and he was still doing well. Foreman's whole style is all about doing the opposite and abusing physical advantages. He would absolutely ragdoll Toney.

Oh, you mean right before the round where Rahman put him on the ropes and easily beat him up when he finally started being somewhat physical ?

Such as ? Look at the range both men are in when Toney is hitting Rahman at 40:29, 40:59, 50:26, 1:02:29, 1:03:00 (I'm really not gonna bother with more time stamps in this section, these are just moments that stood out to me, just watch the fight if you want more). See how it's at close range and with no obstacles taking away space to prevent Toney from throwing ? That's because Rahman puts himself up close, hands tied close to him, in order to punch short and to "get inside. Foreman would use his usual mummy guard to keep Toney at arm's length in order to punch from long-mid range when he's not on the ropes, like he always did.

How often did Foreman hit from such positions in the 70's before Ali ? Certainly nowhere near as many as Rahman did in this fight. And Foreman straight up never used that hands low style, he was a hands high, mummy guard guy. He used that guard to take away space, and to prevent the other guy from throwing. There's more evidence that Toney gets turned into a carpet before he manages to even make Foreman sweat.

Look at how Toney's missing his big overhands that Roach told him to throw from 47:10-47:17. It's because Rahman is using his lead hand to keep him at arm's length (it's just a coincidence here, just instinct, Foreman did it purposefully), and JT decides to just get far out of range in order to start over, before he gets tagged again. That's a glimpse of how Foreman would deal with him.

And this is HW Toney dude, his movement and feet weren't exactly better than Frazier's, at this point. In fact you could argue they're much worse. You're probably mixing MW Toney with HW Toney just like a few folks do with 70's and 90's Foreman. This version of Toney you have in your mind is a unicorn.

You're saying this as if Toney never leaned with his weight on his front foot. What's this at 30:13, 30:19, 30:35, 30:54 (he even gets caught), 31:17 (the body jab pushes him back), 31:21, 31:34 (caught again), 32:30, 32:36, 32:48 and 34:23 ? That's the first round alone. He even gets pushed after shifting his weight for his precious overhand at 39:18 and 59:20, and he looks as if he's getting sucked in a black hole. The commentary team even notes how bad HW Toney's balance is, in round 8.

Foreman would have plenty of opportunities to push him back, especially since Toney is doing this to bait a shot, so that he can then shift his weight back in order to counter (and he's often unbalanced anyway). He needs to be in range for the counter to land, and if Toney's in range for that, then Foreman also certainly is in range to shove him back. 6 inch height difference and 4 inch reach difference, man.

Foreman's just too big and strong. And unlike those boys Toney fought, Foreman actually uses that size and strength.

I'm all for hot takes, but Toney beating Foreman is based on the principle of mixing MW Toney with HW Toney. HW Toney lost to a 198 lbs Lebedev and had a SD win over Danny Batchelder, man.

 

He was beating Rahman up on the inside at least when he wasn't gassed. Most of Rahman's success came at range with his jab hence why his corner tried to get him to keep fighting on the outside. He only had success on the inside when Toney gassed cause he was in awful shape in that fight. Looked much better in the Ruiz and Holyfield fights two guys who attempted to bully him on the inside and couldn't, getting countered all night. Bit of a bad example to use this fight instead of his other HW fights where he looked much better as well as later being up

You clearly haven't watched much young Foreman he would constantly lower his hands when he was throwing power shots and wind up on punches which of course would make his easy prey for Toney.

 

No he wasn't. Why not bother to actually watch the time stamps ? He had success both inside and outside in the fight. His corner told him to stay off the ropes because he was passive up close for the majority of the early rounds. So he stopped being passive and then he beat Toney on the ropes. Are you gonna base reality on what his corner said or on what actually happened ?

Journeyman used this fight as an example of Toney's ability to handle big guys. It's fair game. Also lol at Ruiz and 40 year old Holyfield. As if they're proper substitutes for Foreman in regards to how good they were at manhandling someone.

YoU ClEaRlY hAvEn'T wAtChEd MuCh FoReMaN. Yeah bro, I haven't watched much of one of the 5 or so most popular Boxers who ever lived.

I'm referring to his regular guard, not his punching form. What ? Foreman's a low guard user now ? He dropped his hands at times sure, but seldom below chest height and often higher than that, and very often slightly extended to occupy space, as well as for defensive purposes.

Why not try to actually debunk my post instead of just saying "nuh uh" ?

 

What actually happened is what I said. I've watched the fight multiple times and can do it again since you asked, Toney had plenty of moments mostly on the inside while Rahman mostly had success with his jab the only things he was landing on the inside was stuff that Toney was blocking or rolling with which you seem to have missed as many do watching Toney. Watch round 2 which is a vintage Toney round. Once Toney gassed cause he was out of shape for that fight Rahman was able to land more but still never hurt Toney or even rocked him which says a lot about his chin and defense. Rahman hit pretty hard as well so it does show that Toney can hold up against a strong puncher and he was fighting someone who was bigger then Foreman and did pretty well earning a well deserved draw imo (Rahman weighed 238 Foreman in his prime weighed between 217-224)

Almost like both of them are known for manhandling people, hell that was Ruiz whole style but I guess you'll ignore that because its inconvenient to you. Ruiz was also bigger then Foreman weighing 241 against Toney and yet failed to manhandle Toney but magically you think because Foreman will succeed when he couldn't do that to Ali who is much worse on the inside then Toney lets be honest.

Not when he was punching, since you like your timestamps check 8:04 dude was swinging for the fences and dropped his hand multiple times to load up (mostly missing his shots too) you think Toney wouldn't be able to counter that if they were fighting?

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Yeah, no **** he had moments on the inside, I even pointed them out in my timestamps when Rahman was getting punished for doing absolutely nothing up close. Toney having moments on the inside due to Rahman not doing **** is not an indication that he'd do it vs Foreman, simply because Foreman wasn't such a ***** up close.

You're saying that as if Foreman himself didn't have a jab, in fact his was way better than Rahman's. And yeah, totally blocked and rolled with them. That's why he got hit with 160 power punches and had many thinking he lost the fight.

As if comparing Rahman's weight to Foreman's matters. If this was someone like Fury, who actually abuses his size and is physical up close, then that's fair game. Rahman did none of that because he liked to keep it technical, and he doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as Foreman, certainly not because of a measly 15 lbs. Let's compare Rahman's power to that of Wilder, Shavers, Tyson and Louis after this, if you think otherwise.

Yeah, totally the same. Totally not known for clinching for dear life. Clearly this is what Foreman would do to Toney if he got the opportunity to manhandle him:

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4:43, 5:09, 5:27, 5:38, 6:02, 6:14, 6:48, 7:00, 7:21, 8:51, 9:06, 10:43, 11:03, 11:25, 12:59, 13:21, 13:51, 14:20 (this was after he started attacking too, look how much time passes without him doing anything), 14:40, 15:07, 15:17.

I could go on, but I'm not gonna bother watching a full John Ruiz fight, when I could be watching the late 70's LHW division. 3 rounds are plenty, that was a full 21 clinches.

I agree with the let's be honest part, I think you should just be honest and admit that you think in-fighting and clinch work are the same thing. Because what Ali did to Foreman is totally the same thing Toney did to his HW opposition. He frequently clinched them, he outmuscled them through smart positioning and angles, he pulled their head down, he grabbed them by the biceps to prevent them from throwing, he span them around, etc.

Yeah, totally did all of that. And on a very consistent and frequent basis too. Definitely didn't limit himself to just out-punching someone up close because he wasn't big and strong enough to do otherwise.

Like he countered this at 14:13 and this at 14:50 ?

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But I'll be nice to Toney and assume he would indeed counter it. Good for him ! I'd probably treat him to some Burger King to make him feel better about the follow up, which would probably be something like this, 1:15:20:

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Toney when Foreman actually fights like a HW and doesn't just jab at range and get countered.

 

People expect Foreman to just stand at range with his hands down doing absolutely nothing but sometimes moving a bit.

Who do you think Foreman is? Samuel Peter? Well bad news, even if he was then Toney would still get outclassed

 

You're right he was even worse and would gas twice as fast source: Ali fight glad we agree on that

Evidently people like you can't tell the difference between a clean punch and a not clean one many such cases!

If

Your point? How many clinches did Ali use against Foreman again remind me since you seem good at that.

In other words you agree Toney was more skilled on the inside vs someone who only grabbed and had no inside game to speak of. Glad we can agree on that!

Or something like this 51:50, who can say?

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Prime Foreman vs the whole Kiltschko's title defense roster next

 

People would be surprised how badly he does