Since this has been the latest trend with threads lets do one that might lead to some interesting discussion. Imo its Holmes: more well rounded and better on a technical level without a lot of the same flaws, but I wanna hear other people's thoughts.
Holmes better technically and probably more skilled in regards to the boxing basics. Ali is a better athlete with faster feet and a better combination puncher.
The point is more skilled doesn't mean better. Sometimes when a NBA draftee is touted as fundamentally sound it means lacks elite athleticism.
I agree, Holmes started boxing later in life than Ali, but Holmes worked hard and improved. In the video I saw of Holmes and Ali sparring in 1974, Holmes was handling Ali (Ali was playing to the crowd, shaking his head the same things he always did when he was losing). Holmes had only been boxing about 5 years at the time. Holmes had good movement, without the wasted movement that Ali was known for. Holmes punched well with both hands though his jab was his dominant punch. Holmes mostly fought people who were his size and athletic. He didn't have the luxury of fighting Brian London, Zora Folley, Floyd Patterson types. Ali had huge physical advantages in the 60s and there was little incentive to improve. In the 70s Ali fought Frazier, Foreman, and Norton in his big fights. He lost to Frazier when both were the best they would be. IMO, he lost 3 times to Norton. He beat Foreman for his one big win in the 70s. He was given controversial decisions against Jimmy Young, and Earnie Shavers, then he lost to 6-0-1 Leon Spinks. Ali fought bigger, more athletic boxers in the 70s, and he wasn't dominant. Ali was dominant in the 60s when he was fighting older, smaller, slower people.
Do athletes improve when they are prohibited from practicing their craft for three years and seven months when they are just entering their prime? If the answer is yes, why don't other athletes take similar hiatuses?
But, but, but Holmes looked good against him in sparring. If my menory is correct Al "Blue"Louis and Jimmy Ellis knocked down Ali in sparring. A lot of good it did them in their bouts. As to the 70s the competiton was better while Aii was physically worse.
Very subjective. Holmes was more technical, had a dynamic lead hand and better inside game, Ali had more multifaceted footwork, feints and fluid combination punching. For example, I've never seen a prime Holmes do something like this: This content is protected
It makes no sense to use anything sparring-related against Ali, his own trainer said that Ali was the worst fighter in the world when he was in the gym. Pretty sure theres even a story floating around about how Holmes started bragging in the streets about his performance against Ali in sparrings, only for Ali to catch a wind of it one day and beat the holy hell out of Holmes in their next session.
Liston was the same size as Ali. So was Terrell. Didn't work out for either one of them. Ali was not at his best vs Frazier. He was still very good but not peak. Ali went 2-1 vs Frazier and clearly won the second and third fights. We can all make excuses but if they fought at their peaks, Ali would likely go 3-0 vs him. Ali was completely past it by the time he fought Jimmy Young. Ali had a close fight vs Shavers but again he was past it and most think he won it. I don't believe Ali lost to Norton 3 times. Majority saw the second fight as a clear Ali win. Regardless, Ali was willing to fight Norton multiple times while Holmes rarely granted rematches. Holmes had a close fight with Witherspoon and then went on to fight weaker opposition instead of rematching Witherspoon or fighting Pinklon Thomas. Who did Holmes honestly beat that was as good as Foreman or Liston or even Frazier? No one. The whole "when Ali fought men his size, he struggled" doesn't make sense considering Liston, Terrell, Lyle, Bugner and Foreman were all his size and he beat all of them handily. Norton was a tough stylistic match up for Ali as he was for Holmes. Holmes himself had close decisions vs Norton, Witherspoon, etc. but didn't bother with immediate rematches. He somehow managed to avoid fighting Pinklon Thomas towards the end of his reign while Ali was willing to fight a dangerous Shavers towards the end of his reign. Ali has a better resume than Holmes even if you exclude Foreman, Liston and Frazier.
What exactly is skill? Is combination punching a skill? If so, Ali has this one by miles. Is ability to fight off the ropes a skill? If so, Ali has this one by miles too. Ali defeated 2 decent southpaws, something we never saw Holmes do. I would say that is a pretty important skill.
The Muhammad Ali of 60’s was the fastest heavyweight ever. In the May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, Ali’s jab was measured with an omegascope. Ali’s jab, it was found, could smash a balsa board 16.5 inches away in 19/100 of a second. It actually covered the distance in 4/100 of a second, which is the blink of an eye. Jimmy Jacobs, who owned the world’s largest collection of fight films, said that on film tests with a synchronizer Ali’s jab was faster than that of Sugar Ray Robinson. Jacobs contended that Ali was not only the fastest heavyweight, but also the fastest fighter he ever saw on film. Marv Jenson, who managed Gene Fullmer, concurred saying, “Ali has the fastest hands on any heavyweight I have ever seen.” Bob Foster, the world light-heavyweight champion agreed, saying, in an interview after their fight, “He has no business being as fast as he is. I never saw that right hand.” Author John Durant described him as having “lightning fast hands and a pair of legs that moved around the ring like a ballet dancer. He would float just out of range with his hands dangling at his side as if to taunt his opponent.” Ali made a lot of mistakes in the ring such as dropping his hands low, holding his right hand out too far when he jabbed so he could not block a jab in return, telegraphing his right uppercut by dropping his right hand, and completely neglecting body punching. However Ali, in his prime, was able to out-speed his mistakes. Eddie Futch commented, “Ali takes his mistakes, shows them to you, and then beats you with them.” Ali got away with his mistakes because of his astoundingly quick reflexes, speed of foot, and uncanny ability to gauge distance. Ali danced gracefully across the ring, his lateral movement and fleetness of foot made him the master of ring center. Ali’s judge of distance was also phenomenal. He divided the ring into “safety zones” and “danger zones.” In a demonstration done in a boxing ring for Sports Illustrated, (See May 5, 1969 SI), with sparring partner Lee Carr, when Ali was in a “safety zone” he appeared to be in a position to be easily hit, especially with his hands dangling down at his side. That’s what Carr thought. He decided that a left jab would be long enough to reach him. Ali smugly held his ground and with a slight move of his head Carr’s jab fell two inches short. “I can move in on him,” said Carr, “but I can’t seem to get to him.” Muhammad Ali, The Greatest
Nope. The whole "when Ali fought men his size, he struggled" doesn't make sense considering Liston, Terrell, Lyle, Bugner and Foreman were all his size and he beat all of them handily. Norton was a tough stylistic match up for Ali as he was for Holmes.