Who's more skilled: Ali or Holmes?

1) Ali had five wins against boxers bigger than him and no losses. Ironically his only losses came to boxers smaller than him, even when cooked.2 .) So what if Ali was cooked at 35? 3) Mike Tyson is iconic. Did he have any big wins after 24 yeard old? 4.) Ali virtually cleaned out the division in two decades, in the second decade the competiton was better. He was physically worse. 5) Jim Brown retired from professional sports at 29. I don't think he was actually 30 when he retired from sports to pursue a career in acting. Also was part of the first interracial kisss in a major motion picture. He was a cultural icon. I could go on... ON EDIT -Rocky is iconic. He retired at 32, the same age as when Ali whupped Big George, because his back was going bad and he surveyed the competiton and didn't like what he saw.

 

- Yes, it is a skill. If it was that easy, everyone who is quick could do it.

- Ali beat Norton in their second fight in the eyes of most people. Holmes fought an older Norton and barely edged him and you could make a case that Norton beat Holmes. Makes no sense to claim Holmes did better vs Norton when he struggled just as much.

 

No way on both fronts, Holmes absolutely did better then Ali when he fought Norton, Ali struggled with Norton 3x and many think he lost 3x I rewatched fight 2 and it was even less close then I remember - Nortons best performance was his third fight with Ali… age 33 against Holmes he was 34.

 

"Many" don't think he lost the second Norton fight. Some do. The majority of us saw it as an Ali win. The Norton from the first 2 Ali fights was quicker and superior to the guy who fought Holmes.

Holmes was in his absolute prime when he fought Norton and Ali was never the same fighter after his layoff than he was before. You do realize Holmes-Norton was a split decision right? It wasn't a UD. And there was no rematch. How do you know that if Holmes and Norton fought 3 times, Norton wouldn't win at least 1 considering he arguably won their only fight?

 

If Kenny was prime for his fight with Larry why did he get knocked out in the first round a scant ten months latet to Earnie? Is it a stylistic thing? A cooked Ali decisioned Earnie around the same time.

 

If Kenny was in his prime why did he get KO’d by Foreman a scant 5-6 months? After Ali 2… styles make fights, Holmes beat Kenny after his best performance he was 33 for Ali 3 and 34 for Holmes.

 

Why did Kenny go life and death with journeyman Scott LeDoux in the same time period? Was LeDoux a renowned slugger? Come to think of it both Muhammad and Kenny fought for three years past their discard date.

 

If it works and it's done deliberately and often, it's a skill. Landing any punch against a good professional boxer is a skill. As is avoiding a punch thrown by a good professional boxer.

Being fast doesn't lessen a skill.
If Mike Tyson slips a couple of punches moving forward and lands four of his own, all at blinding speed, do we say it's not a skill because if he was slow it wouldn't have worked?

Doing something at incredible speed arguably takes more skill than doing something "normal" speed.

 

If we disqualified boxers from the conversation for having "physical gifts" we'd possibly end up with only the lowest quality 4 round fighters, men who really chose the wrong profession.

Nobody ever won many real fights by being slower, weaker, less durable/robust, less mobile, less flexible, less explosive, smaller, shorter, less agile and less energetic.

 

A poster said Ali wasted steps. He was an athlete as well as an entertainer. His job was ro put asses in the seats. 46.7% of tvs were tuned into Ali-Spinks 2. That's more than the Super Bowl. And two billion people around the world including President Carter and President Sadat watched it at Camp David. That's a lot of people. It was literally near half the world's population at the time. If anyone doubts my truthiness they can ask ChatGPT.

 

I think that's a bit unfair TBH.

Norton was on a roll coming into the Holmes fight he'd beat Young who had upset Foreman. He'd blasted out Bobick in 1 round who beat Holmes as an amateur, he'd had a good performance vs Ali in their 3rd fight that alot felt he won.

Norton may of been a bit past it vs Holmes but he was still world class and arguably was considered the number 1 Heavyweight at that time with Foreman retiring and Ali looking lackluster in his fights.

As for Shavers he would always be a bad style match up for Norton who can't fight on the backfoot and he can't outslug a massive puncher like Shavers.

 

That's fair. I use hyperbole when others use hyperbole. Kenny troubled Muhammad and Larry, not just the former. Styles make fights