Carlos Roque "Shotgun" Monzón vs. "Marvelous" Marvin Nathaniel Hagler - Definitive Classic Breakdown

Thanks for the kids words, John. Always enjoy your well-thought-out posts too.

As I said above, I go with my head over my heart with this one as I like Hagler and his style a lot more than Monzon but just think Monzon could make adjustments better and that would be really important in this fight.

You’re also right about his corner - they didn’t seem to have answers in the Duran and Leonard fights and allowed him to continue to make grave tactical errors in the latter. In the former, I think Hagler was able to assert himself over the last few rounds enough to pull out the clear win at a point that Duran was threatening to derail him - how much credit Hagler gets for that depends on your view of whether he made adjustments or just that Duran ran out of steam a bit over the last 3 rounds or so.

 

I do think Hagler came out harder in those last couple of rounds. Don't get me wrong, i had him winning by more than the official cards. It's just a little concerning that he didn't do what he should have and had Duran comfortably covered, and then some. He went too timid for quite a few rounds against a smaller, older man, regardless of skill. He blamed a fear of the cut worsening, and claimed Duran was trying for just that.

 

1000%

 

Great. Thanks IB!

 

Cheers, Yorbals

 

This is the 2nd best thread ever, and I have been around here a looooong time.

 

Another great one, George! Cheers!

 

I simply cannot fathom any stoppages in this fight. Unless Hagler is bleeding too much, I don't think it is possible.

 

Oops

 

I've been holding off on this for a few days as I haven't been able to give a detailed response. Now lots of posters have said a lot of what I wanted to say lol, so...

My pick for this match up is Monzon. Here's some of my reasoning:

Clinch strength. Monzon was an underrated roughhouser who knew how to apply his strength when opponents got close. If Hagler gets super aggressive (not actually his default, despite his view in pop culture), Monzon would stifle him as he did other aggressive opponents.

Defence and general frame. Monzon was very underrated in terms of defensive instincts and his body frame in general. A tall middleweight who knew exactly how to use his size and was aware of his position in regards to his short opponents. He was very good at risinf shots and extremely adaptable. His approach to Marvin's attacks would improve as the bout progressed imo.

People are mentioning southpaws, but that was when Monzon was inexperienced. He really came into his own after his early pro career. There is no way Monzon wouldn't start threading his right through Marvin's leads. Grey mentioned that Marvin, despite being southpaw, liked to move to his left due to being dominantly right sided - it's very rare for a fighter to take easier to a direction the same as their dominant (usually rear) foot (example of this is Orlando Canizales, for those curious). Marvin would absolutely be open to looping right hand shots imo, especially as he throws his left, the weaknesses of which have already been mentioned here. Another thing I'd like mention is that whilst many recommend getting the front foot outside the southpaws lead foot, but when you put the lead foot inside the southpaw stance it allows you to land left jabs and hooks much easier. What I can see happening is that Marvin, who usually keeps moving to his left whilst attacking but moves to his right when resetting and jabbing, would be caught by strong jabs during the change in direction - when he resets. Marvin wasn't an all out swarmer. He liked to think about things he was doing and was calculated in his attack. But if you come at Monzon with extreme aggression you will be getting caught with uppercuts and roughhoused, as Napoles did. In either case, I see Monzon eventually taking control of more and more exchanges and the center ringgeneral ship as the bout progresses.

That's another problem here with Marvin imo. He could be mentally caught and flustered, which you absolutely cannot do against Monzon. Monzon was unflappable - he only seemed to grow in surety as the bout progressed. Marvin could also have somewhat 'amateurish' game plans and approaches in comparison to both his own and the opponents level. I just see Carlos exploiting it.

Monzon decision for me.

Also, this may end up as close as the Monzon - Ray Robinson poll (which was 38-38-2!)

 

The Bennie Brisco Factor is throwing me off the most here. I have my mind made up on who I think would win, but what @Philosopher said about Hagler being the graduated version of Brisco is hard to ignore. There were times that Monzon seemed a bit surprised that a fighter (Brisco, in this case) could be such a savage in every way imaginable, which is what most of us consider Hagler. It's hard to ignore...

Even with these thoughts floating around in my head, I think I would favor Monzon here ever so slightly because of how economical and precise all his punches seemed to be. When watching Monzon highlights in preparation for this write-up, I was once again reminded how sometimes it even seemed Monzon was throwing "waste" punches, but he was just getting "you" in position exactly where he wanted you. If he wanted you more in the middle of you, he would throw almost weak punches to your side so you would get into range. If he wanted you in position for a left, he would throw almost throw-away punches to get you lined up for it. It was all methodical. I guess it's these factors that have me picking Monzon ever so slightly. I think eventually Monzon could get Hagler to fight his fight, and eventually win the most narrow of decisions.

A Hagler decision based on tenacity for 15 rounds wouldn't surprise me in the least. However, I feel like this is one of those fights in my head where I can't predict a Haglerwin, so my final answer, reluctantly, will be Monzon by decision.

 

Will get to a more descriptive synopsis of the fight at some point, but a lot of what I think has already been posted, Hagler with his switch hitting and speed are going to be the main factors

I almost draw parallels to Frazier vs Bonavena 1, where it was not an easy night for Frazier but he was a notch above in places it mattered and got it done

Monzon was methodical with his boxing, timing, incredible at range, could hold his own on the inside, but he was not Hearns at range, he was not Duran on the inside

Hagler had what it takes to not allow Monzon to control the pace, he could be a bit more cautious in a particular stance and lull Monzon into that pace then switch it up, turn it up a notch or two

What Hagler would give up in reach he would have in speed, and while Monzon had power it would not be as effective against Hagler and his legendary chin, Monzon didn't really have a style that would fade out in deep water, but Hagler would be able turn it up late, while I don't think it would overwhelm Monzon I think Hagler could definitely edge it

 

Great post.
I think that Marvin would have a chance at hitting Monzon with right hooks to beat Monzon's right hand. In fact, I think that he would be looking for that counter. Great point about getting caught in the change of direction.