Liston's Legacy Without The Ali Defeats?

Take away the two defeats to Ali, what's the final say on his career legacy?
Where does he stand through history?
If Liston had retired after his second win over Patterson?

 

Like if he retires before fighting him or doesn't fight him? Or somehow wins?

I think it wouldn't change where your average person ranks him(borderline top 10 usually outside the top 10) but it would give him a fringe GOAT case which he does not have with the 2 Ali defeats.

If everything goes perfect for Liston and he lucks into Ali and Frazier wins he still might be in the shadow of the 70s because Ali and Frazier are going to do worse against the next era then they did in Listons even if Ali manages a winning record against the top guys again. If Ali had never fought after 1967 this would have been a problem for him as well. Liston is older than Ali and can't really stick around to beat that 2nd generation. Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Jimmy Young, Shavers and Bugner hit the scene a full 5 years after Frazier does.

 

Let's say he retired for what ever reason after the second Patterson fight.
Sorry, I should have put that into the opening post.

 

His diehard fans would proclaim him the god of the boxing, he would be even more overhyped until in 1969 meets Frazier and Quarry.

 

Had Liston been allowed to beat Ali, it would have changed the legacies of both fighters.

 

Absolutely.
The only way that happens is if Ali hadn't come out with the substance in his eyes.
The ref calls it a retirement, tko or dq , and Liston never fights him again!

 

..Nobody is putting Liston top 10

 

Would’ve made a difference for sure for some pundits.

They wouldn’t have any ground to claim that Liston was a quitter who would bail whenever the going got tough.

As it is for me now, I don’t view Liston as a quitter per se anyway.

Also, if Liston retired after the Patterson rematch, then no accidental transfer of monsel to Ali’s eyes - and then NO false, opportunistic claim made by Fast Eddie Machen that he too was “blinded” by Sonny some 4 years prior! Lol.

 

He becomes even more overrated then now lol

 

Teddy Atlas put Liston at 10. I have him somewhere between 10 and 15.

 

Teddy Atlas also says Tyson's record is 0-5, because he's butthurt and talks with emotions

 

Liston did his best work as a contender. Lets say he became champion in 1958 and beat the exact same opponents as title defenses, he would be rated much higher.

If he retired after the 2nd Patterson win, I think he'd still rate the same.

 

Some of them calls Ali accusations accidental and Machen's claim false, calling him a liar.

But it wasn't only two of them who made those accusations, yet they find excuse for every Liston's cheating and quitting.

You're right, Liston fans and agenda is huge, they even exceeded and overpowered Tyson fans in a way of being delusional and hyping, I can guarantee that.

 

Muhammad Ali seems to believe the blinding was intentional. Who knows? He was on a show from London after he beat Foreman. Our Enry was in the audience and Ali said the blinding was intentional. Also in the movie Ali where he had editorial control it's suggested the blinding was intentional. On one hand if it was intentional that's a really shitty thing to do. On the other hand if it wasn't intentional the accusation is pretty shitty. Again, who knows?

 

Until his path crossed Clay's, Liston was considered unbeatable. He would probably have remained champ until 1966-67 if Clay/Ali hadn't come along. Supposing there hadn't been a Clay, who woulda whipped Sonny? After he kayo'ed Patterson twice, there was nobody. Terrell and Chuvalo had the best shot but it's hard to imagine either of them beating Sonny. Can't see Doug Jones or Karl Mildenberger doing it.

But in 1966 Joe Frazier appears in the Ring Magazine annual ratings. In 1967 Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis make the scene. I think Ellis has the style to defeat old Liston and Quarry's got the firepower. Frazier? He's playing the waiting game..