Rocky Marciano > Marvelous Marvin Hagler P4P

I can see it already. The "Marciano only beat up old men and blown up Light Heavies" mantra. You know what's weird ? The same people getting all upset over the title seem to ignore that Hagler's biggest wins were also against blown up guys.

90% of Duran's prime was at 135-140. After he peaked in Montreal, he flew too close to the sun and fell like Icarus within a moment's notice, he then spent the rest of the 80's yo-yoing between washed and ressurected. Quits in New Orleans, loses to Benitez and Laing, then beats a washed Pipino Cuevas and the bigger Davey Moore (admittedly a very good win), loses to Hagler in a good fight, gets smashed by Hearns in 2, loses to Sims, then basically beats nobody of note until his last miracle vs Barkley.

Hearns ? Absolute monster at 147 and 154, but at Middleweight ? 7-2 total, only 3 of his wins were ranked at all in their lives, got chin checked by Barkley, and his best scalp is between Juan Roldan and Murray Sutherland. It's not bad, but like, whatever.

Yet they are somehow treated as super wins compared to Moore and Charles. Why ? Both of them are top 20 P4P locks. Moore can easily belong in a top 10 list and Charles can easily be in the top 5. So why are they dismissed like neighbourhood sparring partners ?

You wanna pull the age card ? Moore was supposedly too old at 38 (proven by actual records), but the same Moore beat Valdes (#1 HW contender at the time) and the LHW/P4P ATG Harold Johnson right before the Marciano fight. He was also on his all time best streak (51-2-1), from 1949-1955. One loss was a DQ for low blows, the other was to Johnson in 1951, who he is 4-1 against, all of those wins being in that same 49'-55' streak. He wound up KO'ing the #4 Heavyweight contender at the time in 1962, at 46 years old, 7 years after the Marciano fight. It's almost as if his whole thing was that time had no power over him. Odd how that gets ignored when Marciano is brought up.

In what way, shape or form is the Hearns win better ? Moore ranks over Hearns all time, period. Comparing a still excellent version of Moore vs that version of Hearns is just....c'mon. Even if you believe that this version of 160 Hearns was a beast and that it was Hagler who ruined him, it's still not the same as beating Moore at the peak of his reign.

Not to mention that Marciano had a (*checks notes) 0.25 lb weight advantage at 188.25 over Moore's 188. The same Moore who had to cut down from 196 to fight Bobo Olson 3 months prior and had to create a whole dietary plan from scratch to make 175. It's not even a cup of water difference. Yup. Totally a win over a washed up, naturally smaller Light Heavyweight.

Oh, you wanna talk about Ezzard Charles, don't you ? How he was 2-2 in his last 4 fights and how past it he was ? So we're gonna ignore how Duran was 3-2 in his last 5 ? Or is it different because he's Duran ?

Are we gonna ignore that Charles knocked a prime Harold Johnson down, and that it was an uncalled KD that would have turned the loss into a draw (and perhaps a win) for Charles ? We're gonna pretend that losing to the unranked Laing is better than losing to the #1 HW contender in Valdes ? We're gonna ignore how both Bob Satterfield and Colley Wallace were ranked at the time Charles beat them right before he fought Marciano ?

Sure Wallace wasn't anything special and Satterfield was a glass cannon, but Batten was never anything at all, and Cuevas was a former cannon turned completely non cannon by the time Duran got to him. And again, Duran was 135-140 for the majority of his prime and he was a visibly flabby 160 lber. Charles was a legit 175 lber turned small HW at 185 (compared to Marciano's 187, which is nothing). If you wanna say that Duran got ressurected again vs Hagler, go ahead, I agree actually. But so did Charles, especially in the rematch. Difference is, Marciano broke him for good afterwards. Hagler famously almost lost.

And are we really gonna pretend Jersey Joe Walcott was worse than the likes of Minter, Antuofermo, Hamsho, Briscoe, or God forbid Mugabi, Scypion and Sibson ? Harry Kid Matthews ranks over anyone in the former group, and the latter group is really no better than the Roland LaStarza's and Rex Layne's of the world.

Hagler still rocks and always will though, I even prefer him as a fighter. But Marciano is just greater.

 

It was a really simple realisation

I literally just went:

"Wait, Moore > Hearns"

"Charles > Duran"

"Walcott > all natural MWs that Hagler beat"

"Oh ****"

Who knows what other awesome hot take I'll adopt with random thoughts like that ?