Floyd Patterson deserves a shout. Close examination of his record shows Floyd came up short against the best opposition at heavyweight — we could create an interesting thread arguing his best win at that weight and it might land on Ingemar Johansson … who was only a ‘good win’ because he beat Floyd. By the time Archie Moore fought Floyd, his days of beating top heavies were behind him (he did get a late-career draw with Willie Pastrano at heavy, but Willie was a blown-up light heavy). No argument that Floyd wasn’t a cut above the Tommy Jacksons and Bonavenas and Chuvalos and Henry Coopers, but what they have in common is that none of them were quite top-tier. Faced with the best cut of fighter, Patterson was competitive but never doing quite enough to get over: Ali, Liston, Quarry, even Jimmy Ellis. Yet in fantasy fights here he’s probably got a lot better record (based off comments/polls) than better fighters like Holmes and Foreman and Lennox Lewis. Heck, Floyd even came up short in his only truly meaningful fight at light heavy (Joey Maxim) and some rate him as an ATG at 175 even though he lacks the CV to support it. It’s even worth discussing why/how Floyd was the one chosen to fight for the title Marciano vacated as his heavyweight ledger was pretty thin at the time. I suspect ‘Cus’ is a better answer than ‘he beat ___.’
The man told you almost three months ago he was putting you on ignore yet you're still lusting after his attention like some sort of cuck. Leave the man alone for gods sake, he's out of your league
I think he's vastly overrated and shown as this perfect beautiful fighter, sometimes even regarded as the "Mexican GOAT" i just don't see it, i tried studying him several times but i don't see this fighter some keep talking about, i also consider his minimumweight opposition to be forgettable and... well, weak Stats of the Champions Ricardo López Defeated: Hideyuki Ohashi (TKO 5) Record at the time: 14-3-0 (2-0 against champions, 1 defense of the WBC Minimumweight title) Record after losing to López: 19-5-0 (3-5 against champions, 1 defense of the WBC title) Kyung-Yun Lee (UD) Record at the time: 20-1-0 (0-1 against champions, 0 defenses of the IBF Minimumweight title) Won the title by defeating Masaharu Kawakami, who was 0-0 at the time and finished his career 0-3 (3 KOs). Record after losing to López: 20-3-0 (0-3 against champions, 0 defenses of any title) First fighter to win a title in the minimumweight division. Saman Sorjaturong (TKO 2) Record at the time: 15-2-1 (0-1 against champions, no title) Record after losing to López: 45-8-2 (2-4 against champions, 1 defense of the unified WBC & IBF Light Flyweight titles, 11 defenses of the WBC Light Flyweight title, 1 defense of the IBF Light Flyweight title) Manny Melchor (KO 11) Record at the time: 25-19-4 (3-3 against champions, no defenses of the IBF Light Flyweight title) Record after losing to López: 38-35-6 (4-8 against champions, no defenses of any title, 5-21-1 record outside the Philippines) Kermin Guardia (UD) Record at the time: 21-0-0 (0-0 against champions, no title) Record after losing to López: 37-12-0 (3-7 against champions, 3 defenses of the WBO Minimumweight title) Alex Sánchez (TKO 5) Record at the time: 25-1 (1-1 against champions, 6 defenses of the WBO Minimumweight title) Record after losing to López: 31-8-1 (1-7-1 against champions, 6 defenses of the WBO Minimumweight title) Rosendo Álvarez (D-TD and SD) Record at the time: 24-0-0 (4-0 against champions, 4 defenses of the WBA Minimumweight title) Record after losing to López: 37-4-2 (9-3-2 against champions, 4 total defenses of the WBA Minimumweight title, 3 defenses of the WBA Light Flyweight title, 2 defenses of The Ring Light Flyweight title) Will Grigsby (UD) Record at the time: 14-1-1 (1-1 against champions, 1 defense of the IBF Junior Flyweight title) Record after losing to López: 18-4-1 (2-4 against champions, 1 defense of the IBF Junior Flyweight title) Anucha Photong / Ratanapol Sor Vorapin (TKO 3) Record at the time: 38-5-1 (2-2 against champions, 20 defenses of the IBF Minimumweight title) Record after losing to López: 39-8-1 (2-3 against champions, 20 defenses of the IBF Minimumweight title) Zolani Petelo (KO 8) Record at the time: 17-2-2 (2-0 against champions, 5 defenses of the IBF Minimumweight title) Record after losing to López: 17-5-2 (2-1 against champions, 5 defenses of the IBF Minimumweight title)
Agreed. Williams finds his way into TONS of posts on this forum despite a record so thin itd disappear if it turned sideways.
Damn, read through this entire thread and was about to post about Patterson but you beat me to it. But yeah in my head Patterson was like, a borderline top 15HW atg, but then I came to the conclusion that: A. If you're outside the top 15 of a not particularly deep weight class then you're probably not an ATG. B. Floyd Patterson just straight up isn't an ATG in either head to head ability or resume. He's highly regarded for three reasons; he's got flashy fast hands, he's trained by the same person that trained Mike Tyson and he's a nice guy. That's it. Cus knew he wasn't all that, which is why he fed Floyd some garbage competition. Then the instant he stepped up and faced his No.1 challenger in the very much historically mediocre Ingemar, dude got flattened in 3 rounds. Avenger himself well but then got absolutely obliterated by Sonny Liston, and that's the entirety of his championship reign. Fed cans, then got upset by a meh fighter in Ingemar and then dominated by another lower tier ATG in Liston. His vaunted post championship competition is just ok. I don't even think it's better than Joseph Parker's post championship wins, which is saying something. It's not even just that his resume is sub-par, but unlike someone like Vitali who's resume is also trash, Vitali was at least dominant as ****, so much so that's it's clear Vitali was multiple level's above but Patterson was never really dominant at any point... Furthermore it's not even like the Liston fight was just a bad matchup, he's just too small and weakly chinned (even relative to his size) to compete against other elite heavyweights. Hell, I'm not even sure he'd beat fighters like Gassiev or Breidis, before we speak about ATG heavyweights. He has very fast hands but isn't a great pure boxer, doesn't hit hard enough to be a stand out as a boxer puncher, is way too small to slug and doesn't have the chin or stamina to swarm. It's not even like this is just a problem vs modern heavyweights, as I think fighters like Joe Louis and Marciano would absolutely obliterate him also. You could even take someone like Max Schmeling over him as well I think. Maybe even a Jack Johnson depending on rules. Seriously I'm racking my brain here, so much so I'm actually going to start a thread for it lol. Who on earth does Floyd Patterson beat H2H at heavyweight? If you're not good H2H AND your resume is mediocre (which it is) then how are you an ATG?
Good Lord. Floyd Patterson was "highly regarded" before Mike Tyson was even born. Floyd Patterson was an Olympic Gold Medalist (the first Olympic Gold medalist to win a World Heavyweight Title), the top contender at Light Heavyweight AND Heavyweight, he was the youngest man ever to win the World Heavyweight Title (at that point), and he was the first two-time World Heavyweight Champion ... all by the age of 25. Seriously, read a book.
I don’t give as much credence to the ‘wow he was young’ for either Floyd or Tyson as you do. I mean, yeah, but they should be rated and regarded on what they did on the entirety of their careers (with allowance for losses while in decline) and not get bonus points for how old they were (or weren’t). I’m more impressed with a 45-year-old Foreman winning the lineal heavyweight title than I am Tyson winning it young. Floyd had like three heavyweight fights when he was put in the eliminator for the vacant title, only one of any consequence (and was Tommy Jackson really a big win, lol?). At light heavy he lost to the only name fighter he faced. Him being ranked No. 1 at that weight is a joke — he started 1955 still being an 8-round fighter and only had like five 10-rounders at that weight. He missed the vast majority of contenders of the day so he certainly didn’t earn it. Floyd was a fine fighter, good enough to beat second-tier opponents but not top tier ones. The record is clear on that. He benefitted by having Cus, who had enormous stroke, pulling the strings.
I think it stems more from being bypassed for well deserved shots at Patterson's title in favor of several far less deserving opponents. ironically, I think their reputations actually benefit from having been deprived of title shots, as I think Patterson would've more likely than not beaten either 1 if Cus had consented to the fights (as it is, he beat Machen fairly decisively once their long overdue fight finally came off).
Witherspoon was good. He may have been remembered more fondly had he been given the nod vs Larry Holmes.
Michael Nunn wins or is competitive in pretty much every fantasy fight he's put in. For some reason it's just a given that he'll recreate the performance he gave against Frank Tate, even though he never did recreate it in real life. James Toney is talked about as this all-around great and a brilliant ring general. Whenever he was in the ring with a crafty world level boxer he suddenly looked a lot more ordinary and lost about 50% of the time. And then there are guys like Thadzi and Tiberi, hardly master boxers themselves. Wladimir Klitschko got knocked out several times by unremarkable fighters well before he was past it, but I'm supposed to take him seriously as an all-time great. Those losses don't count because he wasn't prime enough or didn't have Emmanuel Steward in his corner yet or something. Meanwhile the likes of George Foreman and Muhammad Ali are raked over the coals for not beating Ron Lyle convincingly enough.
James Toney is another good shout-out, he is literally just a black Canelo using a philly shell instead of a highguard without 1% of Canelo’s discipline.