Lennox Lewis is great but

I'm not the one blinding myself to the facts. Quite oppositely, I have availed you of the facts, of which you were somewhat clearly unaware.

Referring to the Mercer and Klitschko bouts as "controversial" means you are reaching for evidence through misinterpretation - not through reason - again, denting the credibility of your commentary. You're simply grasping at straws now, wringing out as much negativity and denigration as you can from a distorted perspective.

Lewis won both fights fair and square, and he avenged the only genuine setbacks on his record. Retirement wasn't about avoiding Vitali - he'd already fought and beaten him - it was the choice of a champion who had come to the end of his era and walked away on top. And it was his prerogative to do so.

As for "greatest victories", you can take your pick. Lewis's résumé doesn't need spin; it speaks for itself.

 

Haven't you watched Lewis's fights? I have no problem listing Foreman's biggest victories: Frazier I, II; Norton; Ali's: Liston I, Frazier III; Foreman; Tyson's: Spinks; Holmes; Bowe's: Holyfield I and III; Frazier's: Ali; Norton's: Ali; Holmes': Norton's, etc. What are Lewis's newest victories? Was it McCall II? Holyfield? Klitschko? In which fight was ATG better in your opinion? I'm not going to question your opinion. You can consider John Ruiz, for example, better than Holyfield, and I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the arguments of Lennox's fans because they never provide specifics. If you write that you think he was great in the Mavroice fight, I respect your perception. I'll agree to disagree, but that's all. A substantive discussion is not about saying that I should see Lennox's CV and agree because I know it perfectly well and I saw how he created it

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what you're doing here isn't actually moving the discussion forward one iota. Worse still, you are more or less declaring that any list I provide is next to useless

Moreover, I've already provided plenty of "specifics". What is this habit of yours, making inappropriate/misplaced claims post-after-post, all about? You have also failed to acknowledge even one counterpoint, choosing to either double down or completely ignore said points.

If you really want some more specifics to work with, then why don't we go back to the post that I suggested might not stand up to scrutiny?

In that post, where you shifted towards an all-out critique of Lewis, you stated: "

This content is protected

"


Here's my take on your above observation:


Bowe - Elected not to fight Lewis and then got put into early retirement by Golota, who Lewis would subsequently decimate inside a round.
Holyfield never faced Golota.

Moorer - After beating Holyfield, he didn't want any of Lewis and then lost to Foreman, going off the rails thereafter. (Lewis also lost to McCall that same year.)
The only other notable Moorer opponent was Tua, when the former was shot.
Neither Tyson nor Bowe fought Moorer

Foreman - Lewis beat the three men who beat Foreman. Neither Tyson nor Bowe fought Foreman.

Ike - was never a viable consideration and was off the scene by '99 due to personal issues. Only Byrd and Tua fought him (and both lost), delaying their universal rating.
Suffices to say that Holyfield, Bowe, and Tyson did not match Ibeabuchi.

Ruiz - was breaking through in 2000 and blew his chance to take a shot at Lewis when it was offered. Ended up showing his worth against a post-Lewis Holyfield. Neither Tyson nor Bowe fought Ruiz either.

Byrd - An unwatchable chancer who'd already been put in his place by genuine 'super' heavyweights and somehow found his way back into contention on the strength of his 2001 Tua win. Lewis had already beaten Tua with complete ease and declared that Byrd "offered no competitive challenge".
Given what had happened to Byrd already (and what would happen to him again), it was a fair shout by Lewis, while he sought to close his career with a big payday. A Byrd fight would have only cost everyone involved money.
Byrd ended up showing his worth against an ancient Holyfield, and via some bad decisions.
Neither Tyson nor Bowe fought Byrd either.

Wlad - Didn't really break through until 2000/2001. At that point, he was the WBO belt holder, still building his profile, and not in a firm enough position to make a challenge to Lewis that would take precedence. Even as he became more of a household name by 2002, the Lewis/Tyson fight was by then the only gig in town.
Holyfield, Bowe, and Tyson didn't fight Wlad, either.

Sanders - Way too late on the scene and hardly worth mentioning. Not even universally ranked until beating Wlad in 2003. That same year, Lewis was still looking for an opponent for his 21st of June 2003, Staples Centre event (which would be his last). No one other than Rahman, in a breakthrough bout years earlier, as well as the Klitschko brothers, fought Sanders.

Witherspoon - Other than Mercer, which other notable Heavyweights matched Spoon during the '90s?

Hide - Fought a Bowe on the comeback trail, and Vitali four years later. Spent all his time on the WBO circuit. No one else of note (save for perhaps Michael Bentt) after which he fell out of the universal ratings and never really regrouped, taking a shellacking at the hands of Vitali in the '00s.

Holmes - Beat Mercer, but only Holyfield and McCall gave Holmes a title shot. Holmes lost them both. Lewis beat all three of the notables that met Holmes.


The above might not be the list you asked for, which would have made no contribution and have gone nowhere useful. Instead, it is perhaps something for you to contemplate.

 

It's okay As I wrote in my introduction, it doesn't matter to me why Lewis didn't fight Bowe, a younger Holy, a younger Tyson, Foreman, Moorer, etc. He simply didn't. There was a discussion about why, and it doesn't take sides. Lewis's best opponents were the 37-year-old, destroyed Holy, who was soon beaten by Ruiz and who fought literally the best of the 80s and 90s. An inactive, overweight Mercer, and Vitali, who lost the same way to Byrd. Lewis won against them, but I watched those fights and I know how they looked. You can consider them ATG-style victories. I see, for example, that Jesse Ferguson, Tim Whitearspoon, and 100-year-old Holmes looked better against Mercer than Lennox, but that's just my opinion, and for you it could be a great victory that looks great on your CV, like Goat. No problem Regards

 

Yes - I assumed as much. It's okay because that seems to be the only type of response you can give when you are finding it difficult to grasp the point/s being made to you.

However, given your history during this exchange, I'd have been amazed if you'd have actually understood that, of the list of names you posted, at least half could be considered either non-contemporaries or never rated. And, of the remaining half, the only really significant miss was Bowe - and the story behind that is well documented.

And anyone can play that game of throwing names up as though they mean something...

Holyfield didn't face:

Razor Ruddock
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Frank Bruno
Tommy Morrison
Michael Grant
David Tua
Tony Tucker
Ike Ibeabuchi
Tim Witherspoon
Herbie Hide
Oliver McCall
Bruce Seldon
Jameel McCline


And then I can state that "it doesn't matter to me why [Holyfield] didn't fight" blah blah blah blah blah..."He simply didn't" and somehow think that's a smart and strong position to take

Despite providing you with several opportunities to expand on your earlier opinions and have a half-decent discussion, a couple of things have become clear...

1. You are only interested slighting a consensus Top-10 All-Time Great Heavyweight at every given opportunity.
2. You have little to no idea of the subject matter you are discussing.


But, at least I got to know you a little better and what you're about. Cheers.

 

Who was I blaming?

 

When somebody wishes to take a dump on an ATG fighter,I wish they would have the honesty to do so openly ,and not with sly, manipulative innuendo.
Lewis beat;
Ruddock no 4
Tucker no3
Jackson no8
McCall Champion
Akinwande no7
Golota no5
Briggs no7
Holyfield no1
Holyfield no 1
Grant no 3
Tua no5
Rahman no9
Rahman Champion
Tyson no2
Vitali no9
Also
Bruno
Morrison
Mercer
Botha
Briggs
Mason
Weaver
How many heavyweights have a better resume against ranked heavyweights?

 

Exactly - But that would ruin their sad little game of concentrating on what a fighter didn't do instead, which can be played by any halfwit.

 

In what context are you mentioning someone like Seldon or Bruno? Holyfield fought Bowe in 1992, 1993, 1995 – which of Lewis's opponents in his ENTIRE career was stronger/higher-rated than Bowe? Holyfield fought Tyson in 1996. Which of Lewis's opponents was stronger/higher-rated than Tyson in 1996? Holyfield also fought Moorer, Douglas, Mercer, and didn't need the help of judges, a doctor, or have to worry about scoring – he won those fights undisputedly and in better style.

 

In your own words: "it doesn't matter to me why [Holyfield] didn't fight [Ruddock, the Klitschkos, Briggs, Golota, Bruno, etc]. He simply didn't"

 

This is not a carousel I am getting on,I'm not paying anyone the compliment of believing this was begun in the interest of sharing information and exchanging views.

It's an attempted assassination of a great fighters record,and not only a blatantly sly and insidious one,but one that reeks of hypocrisy,therefore I am out.

Before the predictable,"oh you are a biased fan boy Brit,"makes its appearance.I'll just say Lewis is not one of my favourite fighters,not even in my top 30. I've just got better things to do with my time,than argue with some of these people.

 

Sorry that you have issues and suspect bad faith, but surely a great mind like yours realizes I didn't actually put up a defense, right? I mean, I am glad you loved it anyway --- but WTAF.

Had you been capable of looking beyond your glibness, you'd have seen I squarely laid blame in plain sight (though not in all cases). But ignorance is a funny thing --- it makes you miss opportunities (a little like Bowe and Ruiz).

I suspect the question might have been too difficult for you to answer - your specialties seem to be pithy reductivism, mild self-aggrandizing and ad hominem - a bit trite if you ask me, but horses for courses, yes?

If you can't tell me why Lewis not fighting Hide, Witherspoon, Holmes, Ibeabuchi, Wlad and Sanders was a career-defining failure laid solely at his door, then I'll have to assume you struggle with basic concepts like cause-and-effect, chronology, and positioning - or, in other 'super sophisticated vocabulary', contextual dynamics. (Note: You will not find these words in your Peter Pan Pocket Dictionary.)

There may be classes to help with that; alas, nothing will cure your attitude problem (You'll probably have that for life).



Oh... ...and I do hope this troll thread was worth it - though at least it has demonstrated your tediously shallow grasp of... ...anything of merit, really... ...and your utter lack of spatial awareness.



We're done here, now.