Jack Johnson (of Ketchel fight) vs. Jack Dempsey (of Willard fight)

Yet, his best or most highly touted wins were mostly against much smaller opponents such as Burns, Ketchel, Langford, Jackson. Or they were inexperienced; McVey had less than ten fights when they fought, he was 19 years old, Jeannette had less than twenty fights and in their sixth and final meeting he fought Jack to a draw. Langford was considerable smaller and less experienced. They were also considerably smaller. Fitzsimmons was washed up, Jeffries was coming out of a six year retirement and had to lose 100 pounds. After his loss to Willard it was all downhill, not one win worth mentioning.

There has never been a fighter more romanticized in the history of boxing with that type of resume. Langford deserved all of the glory, but Johnson was the first black man to become HW champion and the rest is history.

 

Two of my all time favorite fighters ... I lean towards Johnson because of a much greater level of opposition but he'd have to be all in and not the arrogant, coasting version that choose at times to do (maybe) just enough like vs Marvin Hart ...

 

McVey was 20 for their last fight and outweighed Johnson by, 25lbs in their 1st fight,16lbs in their 2nd,and 17lbs in their 3rd McVey is also credited with several more fights than are on his record.
Langford and Johnson did not weigh in for their fight,the given weights of 185lbs Johnson ,to 156lbs Langford are estimates ,both were around 20lbs below their best weights ,and Langford had notched up 10 more fights than Johnson at that time.I never mentioned Fitzsimmons.
Jeffries lost an estimated 65lbs and he had nearly 2years to do it in,he was down to 227lbs almost a year before the fight.
Johnson was 37 when he lost to Willard ,after being in front at the 20 rd stage, what would you expect him to accomplish in the years that followed ?
Bottom line Johnson's rep was cemented before he became champion. You're as entitled to your opinion as the next man,but I think I've satisfactorily refuted your statement that Johnson's best wins were mostly against smaller opponents.

 

I'm undecided.
I used to think jack could blast him out early but the more I know about Johnson the more I think he has a chance of winning.

 

Two greats.Johnson said Dempsey was a tornado for 4 rounds after that he became an ordinary fighter.Dempsey is my favourite,but he would be up against a man who knew exactly how to nullify a great offensive fighter.

Persuasive cases can be made for either man,imo.

 

Tex Rickart helped establish the modern style of 15 round fights with less clinching to benefit mostly Jack Dempsey and his all out slugging power punching style. Given the shorter fight and no or little clinching Dempsey had a punchers chance. The old rules favor Johnson more who had a devastating upper cut he delivered in clinches. Generally speaking Johnson was said to be a defensive wizard with cat like quickness and a powerful 209 or so pounds spread over 6 1/2 inch frame. Dempsey while 6 1 was under 190 pounds in his prime. Jack Johnson was too heavy and strong while being too quick and skilled. The swinging hooks Dempsey threw against Willard would be avoided by Johnson with powerful counter punching to follow. In clinches Johnson could over power Dempsey. I think Johnson stops him hard to say when.

 

Who was Jackson?
Anybody ever claim Fitzsimmons wasnt washed up?
Johnson himself said he was puzzled by all the credit he got for this fight
Johnson was 37, when he lost to Willard,you would hardly expect anymore meaningful victories from a man that age in1915.
McVey is credited with several more fights if you look closer at his record.

Langford had 10 fights more than Johnson when they met.
I totally agree in so far as Langford is the greater p4p fighter,but wouldn't exploring that fact be better served by another thread instead of inserting it into a thread about a fight between Johnson and Dempsey ,where its seems not only irrelevant, but just a gratuitous attempt to post yet another negative post about Johnson?

 

Who were these other opponents McVey fought before Johnson?

It is my opinion Johnson was overrated. It’s not a personal attack on Johnson. I also think Ketchel was overrated too.

 

"McVea had fought twice before coming to Oxnard, once in Salinas and once in Australia; he had a reported record of 6-0-2 prior to this fight."

If you don't want to accept this,and I'm pretty sure you won't.lol There is no point continuing further.

 

What is the primary source? You yourself insist on primary sources, where is this from? Who originally reported it?

 

Box rec credits him with further fights, CBZ possibly with 1.

Each must make his own mind up .

 

Boxrec and CBZ are not what you yourself would consider primary sources.

 

As I said, it's up to the individual.

 

The claimed record of 6-0-2 comes from a report in the Oxnard Courier in March 1902 - ahead of McVey's first recorded bout against George Sullivan.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/oxnard-courier/114092067/

 

Interesting, I wonder who wrote the article. Could the manager or promoter have claimed a record to make fight more lucrative? They also didn’t know how many fights his opponent had. Doubt these were sanctioned fights. Likely pick up scraps for betting money. I’m sure Johnson had his share prior to his first official fight where he won a Texas state middleweight title.