How good was Sam Langford?

So because regional promoters in France and England called Langford a champion at different times he had a claim to the title? No. IBU basically began and ended with France in 1913 and the NSC was a promotional outfit out of Britain. Neither had any reach or standing beyond their borders and were consistently ignored by anyone else.

The IBU's justification for calling Langford a champion was because Johnson hadnt defended his title and yet he defended his title the day before Langford beat Jeanette making the point moot.

How would you draw the conclusion that Langford beating Hague makes him a champion? Because Hague beat Moir for the National title? Moir lost his last fight to the actual champion, Burns, and hadnt fought in over a year when Hague stopped him. Burns then lost to Johnson. Johnson's claim was securely established at that point and the only question to it arose because Jeffries retired undefeated. We know how that turned out so trying to claim some paper title for Langford in mid 1909 just doesnt hold water.

 

I don't think you understand the difference between a regional body that has a world title and a regional body whose highest title is regional.

The NYSAC and NBA are both regional bodies who had world titles you do recognize. So knock it off with that but regional body = regional belt bull. We all know you know better. That, or Jack Dempsey is a US champion not a world champion. Having only US regional body belts and all ... ... silly billy.

All we are telling you is that body claimed world, not regional. Sam Langford is a world champion.

That said, I have in the past disputed the claim the IBU had anything to do with it and it was simply FBF. Which, is a nuanced difference that makes no change to the fact that regional bodies crowned world champions because there is not world body yet, silly billy, and Sam was once crowned by one as one.

So, nah doe dog.

 

I dont care if Rhode Island had a world title. Those ten officials in Rhode Island are still the only people who think that guy is a world champion. Nobody thought Langford was a champion. Thats why nobody was trying to win his “championship.”

 

oh no. djanders passed away? i was wondering where he'd been. always loved reading his posts about the fights he'd seen.

RIP brother. enjoyed your posts. hopefully you're tossing one back with Langford, Johnson, and Dempsey right now, telling them about this thing called the internet you lived long enough to see.

 

Why are you using a hypothetical to talk about actual history?

Is his colored title regional?

Is his IBU title regional?

How many world titles does dude need to have?

 

One, the one everyone cared about.

 

Does not motivate me to change my stance.

The period was racist. The racists claimed their title matters most. You uphold that claim even now.

 

Except the champion at the time was black. So the title you would be splintering is a black mans title. Jeanette, McVey, Langford, they all wanted Johnson's championship. Yeah they were willing to fight for the "black heavyweight championship" but go read black newspapers and tell me who the black community thought was the heavyweight champion. It wasnt Langford. Go read the coverage for most of those fights deemed today as "black heavyweight championship" fights and they dont even mention a championship. Even in Britain and France after Langford was supposedly winning the "world" title the press there for the most part ignored the claim. So go ahead, dont change your stance. History doesnt care what your stance is. By your reasoning Arthur Pelkey was a heavyweight champion because he won the "white heavyweight championship of the world."

 

"So because regional promoters in France and England called Langford a champion at different times he had a claim to the title? No. IBU basically began and ended with France in 1913 and the NSC was a promotional outfit out of Britain. Neither had any reach or standing beyond their borders and were consistently ignored by anyone else."

This might shock you.

But the "National Boxing Association"(now the World Boxing Associaton") was a national outfit run out of the USA.

This might shock you even more.

The "New York State Athletic Commission" is part of the state government of New York.

All world titles were given out by organizations that were regional in nature back then.

 

I know you hate it but nobody considered Langford a champion. Johnson was the champion. Not Langford and not McCarty or Pelky or Gunboat Smith. The NBA wasnt even formed when Johnson was champion. The NSC was nothing more than a promotional outfit at the time. The IBU wasnt formed until 5 years into Johnson's reign and went defunk less than a year after its founding due to the war. Even at its "height" it only represented a few promoters of Belgium and France. It had no teeth and no official unified mandate. It was largely ignored except by those promoters who initially founded it. One of those promoters was Victor Breyer who just happened to promote the Langford-Jeanette fight and was responsible for awarding Langford with his personal version of the heavyweight championship. You think that isnt a conflict of interest? A promoter trying to sell tickets to his fight stripping the current champion so he can promote his bout as a title bout??

 

Before Gunboat the "white heavyweight championship of the world" was not held by the best white HW or even any top white HW. The "colored" title changed hands often because of all the reamtches but it was always held by at worst a top 3 black HW. A belts value is what it represented. Especially in the early 1910s the "colored" title meant something. The white title did not.

Its hard to explain what a disaster the implementation of the white HW title was. The first champion was literally killed in his first title defense.

"Even in Britain and France after Langford was supposedly winning the "world" title the press there for the most part ignored the claim."

The British stripped Langford in 1911. The French press got a little distracted.

 

And yet as distracted as the French were they still referred to Johnson as the champion. Langford was considered a world champion in France for about as long as it took the promoter to count the gate receipts. By all means, hold on to your crackpot beliefs its amusing to us.

A good rule of thumb to save yourself future embarrassment is to take a close look whenever you see someone trying to create a branch in the accepted title lineage during a champions reign. Look closely enough you will always find a promoter somewhere trying to sell tickets for a fight. When Jack Johnson was champion all of these fly by night titles get created by promoters trying to sell tickets to a heavyweight championship because they know they cant afford Johnson's services and they cant come up with a fighter to beat him.

 

Most sanctioning bodies weren't established yet except the NSC which had existed since the 1890s. Outside the British sphere titles were claimed by the fighters and/or promoters and accepted or rejected by the public. Which was usually determined by the claimants fighting each other. A process sanctioning bodies were created to expedite. It is my theory sanctioning bodies became the norm in response to the MW situation following the death of Stanley Ketchel.

The IBU kept existing until 1946 then became the EBU. They stopped operating during the war but were frozen in statis not gone.

Langford and Jeanettes resumes at this juncture speak for themselves. If was two random guys getting an honor they didn't deserve it'd be different.

 

The NSC did not recognize domestic title fights that did not take place under their auspices.
Wasn't Bill Tate the Colored Heavyweight Champion when he beat Wills on a foul in1922 ?