Biggest "forums darlings"

TBF lot of people here have replaced Holmes with Lewis. Right now the challenge is ranking Wlad on the same level as these two which imo he clearly is but I guess that's still a minority position for now.

 

Yeah, but Millennials and late GenX are lot more common on boxing boards than early GenX and Boomers. A top four poll matched to age might show the difference.

 

I wonder how much of the difference of opinion people have on these forums is just a generational divide?

 

Holmes #3 and Lewis #4 for me and I could just as easily see them the other way around.

Wlad lost conclusively x 3, whilst experienced and in his physical prime, whilst Holmes didn't, going 48-0 until the age of 35 when he was clearly past prime. That's the primary reason I consider Holmes as clearly higher.

I value Wlad's dominance post those 3 losses highly, which is why I rank him than most on this forum.

Perceived cross era H2H doesn't factor into my criteria at all.

 

Fair enough I figured that was your criteria.

Out of curiosity do you count Holmes close fights against him or no?

 

That depends what you mean.

I respect the decision of the judges, except in cases of clear and widely accepted robberies, e.g. Lewis vs Holyfield 1, which for all intents and purposes I consider a win for Lewis and a loss for Holyfield, from an historical ranking perspective.

Holmes had no such robbery win and so I don't consider any of his wins as losses.

I also don't value his wins over Norton and Witherspoon, for example, the same as I would do had he won by stoppage or clearly by wide decision. They count for, not against, him, but I consider the context that they were close fights.

 

Did you not read what I said? I considered Holmes undisputed because he unified by fighting Ali for the lineal title. Wladmir did no such thing.

I was under the impression Holmes had both the WBC and WBA titles when he fought Ali. I stand corrected. Since Weaver had the WBA after beating Tate, then Holmes wasn't undisputed.

You can argue Holmes and Wladmir were the "top dogs" of those time periods, but they weren't undisputed and didn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they were the best of their era, only for brief periods of time.

This is silly, Wladmir didn't try to be the best either because he made zero attempts to become undisputed or fight his brother. As far as I know, the only time Wladmir attempted to become undisputed was when he asked Wilder to step aside for his mandatory shot so he could fight Stiverne.

The thing you guys refuse to accept is that if there's another guy in the era and you're not sure if the champion could beat them in a fight, then the champion isn't the top dog of that era.

 

Now this is just arguing in bad faith and being obtuse.

A fighter's ATG ranking isn't just based on winning one title fight. Spinx was undisputed, but he lost the belts in his very first defense to an aging ex champion. The rest of his resume is rather disappointing. Holmes and Wladmir rank above him because of their overall achievements (wins over various ranked contenders, title defenses, wins over ex/future champions, getting off the floor to win tough fights, punch stats and skill/technique, etc).

No one in the history of boxing said becoming undisputed automatically makes you better than any other boxer who didn't achieve undisputed. However, if two guys are close in achievements going neck and neck, the undisputed achievement can tilt things in a boxer's favor because it's a major, historical achievement in a multi belt era. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best and sheer ignorance and stupidity at worst.

 

Fury has an excellent chance of beating Vitali from 2011 to 2012

Povetkin also has a good chance

 

You could make the exact same argument for unifying belts like Wlad compared to Holmes.

 

Sometimes I call this site "The Lennox Lewis Appreciation Society".

 

But he wasn't undisputed. Just like Wlad. And Wlad didn't have returing lineal champion to fight either. He re-established the lineage by himself.

In my opinion they both did. But you can't say one did and one didn't, that's just not how it works.

Wladimir tried to be the best, he beat every top contender available except his brother. And it was his brother who needed to prove himself, not Wlad. To be the man you have to beat the man. Wlad was the man and Vitali didn't challenge him. Even if Wlad wanted to fight Vitali, Vitali wouldn't do that. And that's understandable. Still, Vitali was only active for 4 years out of 10 and didn't do anything to even have a claim as the best of the era.

 

No one is more delusional than the Larry Holmes "ATG, Top 3 Heavyweight" crew. It's like dealing with flat-earthers.
And, yes, he lost to both Witherspoon and Carl Williams.

 

If he top 3 or not is subjective but there are people who can justify why they rank him that way if they do.

 

ATG lists change over time. I tend to believe that a great fighter would be great in any era if they were Time Machined into it and did their whole career there. They may not become a champion but they are going to be damn good.
I struggle a great deal with my own personal bias when comparing fighters.
For example I really like Larry Holmes, I grew up with him being champion. I am sure he is a great fighter but I bet I overrate him both legacy wise and h2h. The same in reverse for Wlad, at least while he was champion. I had a low opinion of him. Now that he’s not around I kind of see him different. He was a great fighter too, I just didn’t want to see it.
I make a lot of excuses for James Toney and I’m sure I overrate him.
I loved Arguello and hated Pryor for years. Now I can look back on them different too. Pretty sure Aaron was just a bridge too far and I couldn’t accept he won.
It’s hard not to have bias towards eras and favorites. Human nature I suppose.
That being said I do find certain fighters overrated. There are seasons to it though. Jerry Quarry in my opinion is quite overrated here. Rocky Marciano is sometimes. It was bad for a while. Now he’s often underrated.
Gerry Cooney is overrated as well. Rewatch the Holmes fight. Had Larry stepped on the gas in round 2 after the KD I think Cooney could have been out. Then again might be my Holmes bias.
David Tua seems very overrated based on accomplishment.
just my opinion