Is Wladimir Klitschko a favorite over prime George Foreman and Sonny Liston H2H

Those were mostly much more sporadic. Wlad was a serial offender and plenty will say he needed them to get to where he did, or even survive at times. Note that none of those he named were (mostly) boring negative fighters.

NoNeck will say anything to put down classic fighters and champion moderns. He has no scruples or pride in his efforts at this point. Christ, he basically told you Wlad's three losses pre title didn't count and likened them to Holmes getting beat in the amateurs. Most posters would have tore him a new one, so pitiful and disingenuous was his point.

 

Not just talking about holding I mean generally there are lots of fighters who did so many stuff the ref's let pass that happened multiple times. Headbutting/low bows and so many other things.

Yeah because people consider Wlad boring and don't like his style agreed that's what it largely about. I disagreed with NoNeck on the Holmes Wlad point there yes but he is right that the same logic applies to other fighters but isn't always consistently used.

 

I was talking about what you pointed me too. Those guys didn't rely on things religiously. Wlad seemed to. Obviously hundreds and thousands of fighters have broken the rules, some often. Wlad made a reign of it tho.

The other fighters simply didn't rely on it as much as Wlad did. Wlad was oh so obvious too, where as a guy like Holyfield was very hard to spot. Christ, NoNeck compares Wlad's holding to Ali's taunting

 

Holding even on the higher end is way more accepted by referees in boxing than bites and headbutts and the other stuff so it's semantics which is why many of them are relatively lenient on holding more than the other things despite the controversy holding can cause. So for me it still should be mentioned as a consistent standard.

Wlad also had fights were he dominated and they weren't a clinch fest (ok in boring fashion) so it wasn't in every fight as sometimes made out.

 

Well Wlad fought his share of spuds so he's hardly going to need to get his clinch fest on against them, is he?

What fights would you point to that refs let as much clinching go as Wlad vs Povetkin? Particularly world title fights, and even better, at heavyweight?

 

It got thrown out 5th but remember sadly watching live Lewis Akinwande was terrible.

Akinwande Scott Welch ever see that? Hope not . Awful fight where Welch and Akinwande, Welch more so just clinched time and again. 12 rounds of seriously poor boxing.

 

Primes would pick both Liston and more so Foreman over Wlad, upright Wlad decent but not ramrod jab I think prime Foreman backs him up and stops him.

Be almost Witherspoon Bruno type finish, 15 round fight Wlad would gas later rounds.

 

I meant much more compared to butting and other forms of dirty fighting.

But no not compared to Wlad-Povetkin which I agree and have always said was a ugly fight that the ref should have not allowed to look like that.

 

If Wlad gasses out, Foreman is already gassed.

 

Ali vs Frazier II. Wlad vs Povetkin looks worse as Wlad wasn't the only one to initiate clinches. Ali was the only one doing that in that fight.

 

I can point you to one that put up with much less:

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The Late Great Mills Lane isn't having it!!

 

Generalizing and reducing this subject to "semantics" is somewhat deflective.

Anyone with eyes can see that Wlad, in reality, would often use clinching to avoid boxing and, at the same time, disable his opponents' efforts to do so. This is captured on film, measurable and can be seen to have had a significant impact on the shape and dimensions of a fight.

I would say that not only is it starkly obvious why Wlad receives criticism for his clinching strategy, but also that these criticisms are absolutely warranted and evidence-based.

As an aside, it seems you are simultaneously aware of a distinction between fights in which Wlad did and did not employ his clinching strategy to kill the action (or 'dominate', as you might put it). This suggests to me that you perhaps do realize just how extreme Wlad's clinching could be.

 

Archie Moore gets a pass though and we should also assume Holmes could deal with southpaws even though he got bombed out by Nick Wells when he last fought one.

 

I have no problems with the criticisms against Wlad but just stating throughout history there have been a large number of fighters who have done and got away with various stuff so there should be a consistent standard that's all.

 

And Ali's holding. I really didn't intend to hurt your feelings with those posts. Or maybe you just miss me.