Is Wladimir Klitschko a favorite over prime George Foreman and Sonny Liston H2H

• Joe Louis — 13 years
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• Bernard Hopkins — 12 years
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• Wladimir Klitschko — 11 years
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• Benny Leonard — 8 years
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• Henry Armstrong — 4 years
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• Archie Moore — 4 years
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• Jersey Joe Walcott — 2 years

Ironically, even in a post when trying to take someone on about "context", you struggle to show any. Disingenuous all the way to the dump. The old timers were fighting on a much more frequent basis, which is why you, being the cellar dweller troll that you are, have targeted years. Even then you ripped Benny Leonard off.

You seem to have the idea that bringing Joe Walcott into things will upset me, an idea that i am a huge fan. Unlucky buddy.

So pushing Walcott aside (he doesn't belong near that group), lets talk CONTEXT then.

When measured via fights, Wlad is second last and only one ahead of Moore.

Every fighter on the list had better top end wins than Wlad. The level of opposition they all fought was higher than Wlad's. Every fighter on the list is notably higher ranked historically than Wlad.

Some competed in multiple divisions, against bigger men.

In essence they all had bigger mountains to climb, than Wlad.

But here's the crux - for a great many of those 11 years Wlad's brother may have been the best in the division. At the very minimum Wlad did not face the best or second best heavyweight in the world during those multiple years. Whether talking defenses, wins in a row, or years, Wlad's stats are immensely clouded by this FACT.

But go on, go and make up a metric and pinpoint it in an effort to sell Wlad. There are some in here silly enough and biased enough to actually swallow it.

 

Vitali was better 100%.

Some idiot will now say "But Vitali said Wlad would beat him".

 

1. Every chance, absolutely.
2. YUP!!!!!!

 

You're entitled to your opinion,even if it's wrong !

 

Come on man, Holmes and Foreman had far more reliable chins ( and you know it ).

 

But what about Ali ? To say Brewster and Peter were better than Young is a very dubious claim.
Who exactly did the young Foreman duck ?

 

Vitali could have been better but IMO Wlad's resume was better and he achieved more. Vitali still has some arguements in his favour but don't think it's enough.

 

Having a better resume than Vitali is not saying a lot. It's generally viewed as a poor resume.
And it doesn't really deal with the speculative head-to-head / who was the better fighter question.

Despite losing to Lewis, we at least saw Vitali's performance ceiling in this bout.

Vitali's losing effort might indicate to some, that he was more apt to deal with that kind of elite level opponent (despite how far gone Lewis was by then).

In my opinion, he also dealt with Sanders and Peter more effectively - the then form/condition of these fighters notwithstanding.

 

The judges also gave Park Si-Hun the win over Roy Jones jr. It hardly matters what they think when the reports are clear that Hagler bested him in the ring.

You're deliberately ignoring the south American scoring system then. That's on you for choosing ignorance, not on Monzon.

Everything.

Wlad, an olympic gold medalist with hundreds of fights, quite a few of them at the peak of the amateur level, got KO'd in his 25th, 42nd and 45th pro fight (in a 69 fight career) by unranked fighters. He was an established world level operator both as a pro and as an amateur by the time of the Sanders and Brewster bouts, whereas Monzon and Hagler were on the domestic scene when they got their blemishes.

 

Imagine having to explain to somebody the difference between Wlad and Ward. They're not in the same stratosphere , let alone ball-park.

Ward - fought in and out of the clinch , never needing to "reset the action"

Example.

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Fighting in the clinch and jostling for position to throw and land. Anybody throwing in close is leaving themselves vulnerable. Every time Ward threw in close he gave his opponents opportunity. He's not shutting them down like Wald does , his inside skill simply rendered most of his opponents dumbfounded.

Roughhouse tactics are fine , this is the hurt game after all. The goal is to be better at every aspect of combat than your opponent. And Wards style was full-on combat.

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Wlad - hoisted his whole body over guys backs. Wrapped himself around them like a squid and refused to let go.
Clearly Wlad was way more more egregious in holding , bear hugging and back humping.

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I get the feeling like there's a reason why you specified "young Foreman" instead of just saying his name.

 

Of course, you've ignored that Wlad's streak was virtually all high quality and/or title defenses whereas during the "frequent basis" days, undefeated streaks and title reigns were speckled with quick fights against nohopers in nontitle fights. I'll wait for you to exclude them from the win streaks.

 

I don't. Wlad fought lots of big hitters during his prime and ate their big shots, even though he generally dominated the fights.

 

Benny Leonard (long unbeaten run, ~1917–1923)
Crappy / journeyman opposition:

• Willie Green (career loser, ~2–13)
  
  
• Frankie Fleming (club fighter, losing record)
  
  
• Johnny Harvey (durable, many defeats)
  
  
• Johnny Tillman (mediocre, not a contender)
  
  
• Soldier Bartfield (pro loser with dozens of defeats)
  
  
• Phil Bloom (regional trial horse)
  
  
• Knockout Brown (lots of losses, more show than substance)
  
  
• Johnny Shugrue (shot when Leonard fought him)

Henry Armstrong (46-fight win streak, 1937–1940)
Crappy / journeyman opposition:

• Lew Feldman (pro opponent, badly losing record by then)
  
  
• Jimmy Garrison (journeyman with 60+ losses)
  
  
• Al Manfredo (club fighter, losing record)
  
  
• Joe Glick (old and worn-out by Armstrong’s time)
  
  
• Paul Junior (regional loser)
  
  
• Tony Chavez (career journeyman)
  
  
• Richie Fontaine (not contender material)
  
  
• Juan Zurita (once good, completely faded when Armstrong got him)

Archie Moore (28-fight win streak, 1947–1951)
Crappy / journeyman opposition:

• Buddy Millard (mediocre light heavy)
  
  
• Clinton Bacon (losing record, obscure)
  
  
• Phil Muscato (club heavyweight)
  
  
• Bill Peterson (career opponent)
  
  
• Bob Dunlap (durable trial horse)
  
  
• Bob Amos (losing record)
  
  
• Leonard Morrow (faded quickly, became an opponent)
  
  
• Ellis “Kid” Johnson (journeyman heavyweight, losing record)

Joe Louis ( “Bum of the Month” stretch)
(excluding Buddy Baer & Lou Nova as requested)
Crappy / journeyman opposition:

• 
  
• 
  
• Johnny Paychek (classic “bum of the month”)
  
  
• Al McCoy (not world class)
  
  
• Tony Musto (tough but not ranked)
  
  
• Red Burman (journeyman, many losses)
  
  
• Abe Simon (huge but unskilled)
  
  
• Gus Dorazio (club heavyweight)
  
  
• Johnny Davis (patchy record, not contender)

 

I did say Vitali has some arguments in his favor those being some the one's you mentioned. But the comment I was responded to said Vitali was 100% better which is kinda debatable in itself so it's pretty fair to look at how there whole careers went down regardless of what the perhaps majority opinion is on Vitali's resume is so I think it was pretty fair to mention it.