Anyone Else feel Holmes Should have Been Better Then He Was?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by themaster458, Sep 13, 2025 at 11:09 AM.


  1. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    So, I've recently been watching a decent amount of Larry Holmes, and it's clear he's a great boxer, in my opinion, one of the most skilled in heavyweight history. But one thing that always bugs me is the feeling that he should have been way more dominant than he ended up being.

    Many say his resume is a bit lacking, and I tend to agree. More than that, he seemed to struggle against a lot of opponents he really should have dominated. He arguably lost to Norton, Williams, and Witherspoon. He had an ugly fight against Weaver where he gassed out early and looked like he was in trouble before finding a second wind. His fight with Cooney was competitive, and while Cooney was a solid boxer, he never really showed that elite level in any other fight.

    Holmes was almost knocked out by Shavers, a hard-hitting but one-dimensional slugger, and was knocked down by Snipes. And finally, he lost to Spinks, a clear cherry-pick gone wrong against a light heavyweight moving up (though he probably should have won the second fight).

    So what does everyone think? Am I being too harsh on Holmes? Or are my critiques of him valid? If so, why did it seem he didn't perform as well as he should have in some of these fights? Let's discuss!
     
  2. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict

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    You have to take into consideration something about all the fights that you mentioned; they were all world title fights and every fighter dreams of being a world champion. Norton had fought for the title several times and probably felt that the Holmes fight would be his last chance so he came prepared to fight his best fight. Cooney, at that point in his career, didn't think that he could lose and he fought the best fight of his career. Shavers was in the same position as Norton so he came to win. Holmes had handled him easily in a 10 round fight and, if memory serves, did pretty much the same in the title fight except for one punch.
    In my opinion the Williams, Witherspoon and Weaver fights were meant to be easy fights for Holmes, so it wouldn't be surprising if he took them lightly. In all 3 of those fights I believe that Larry thought that it would be easy while the other 3 guys saw the fights as a chance to make a dream come true and fought their best fight. I think that you could also put the Spinks fights in that category.
     
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  3. Mandela2039

    Mandela2039 Philippians 2:10-11 Full Member

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    he very well might be the best heavyweight that ever lived lol
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is the thing and it's a very very interesting little wrinkle, Holmes was very skilled, but he was a war-machine and he knew what was necessary to get where he needed to go. But there are reasons for this I think and it's just that being over 200lbs and being genuinely elusive even against smaller fighters, it's so very difficult. More than that it's very very hard to take yourself onto your toes or onto the move for 15 rounds while weighing in at 215lbs. Little tactical foibles develop as the fights go without someone making changes; and smart guys, like Larry, they're aware that these foibles are going to develop. Even in Ali-Terrell (Ali, for a tiny handful of fights, was the exception to the rule) Terrell is hanging on in there waiting for things to change for him without trying to do anything to change them. There's a mid-fight slump for heavies that isn't reflected at 175lbs for very well trained fighters.

    So at HW you can be as skilled as you like, especially in the fifteen round era, but the bigger they get the more it will hold and it's so interesting tactically and leads to these feelings that a fighter is better than they appear under a microscope than what it is they deliver in the ring.
     
  5. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A few things to point out.

    The Weaver fight apparently Holmes had the flu going into that fight which isn't good for your energy levels which is why I think Holmes looked more fatigued in the later rounds than usual.

    Holmes also probably underestimated Weaver so I think it was combination of the two things.

    Norton has a troubling style for boxers as evident of his performances vs Ali, Young, and is a very good fighter himself so I don't see it as a negative for Holmes.

    Holmes won in a great fight in his first championship experience against a very good fighter who had a troubling style for him.

    Holmes was already aging by the time he fought Williams and was fighting his 19th world title fight in 7 years.

    Williams was also 6'5 with an 85 inch reach and had a very good jab so it's not too surprising an aging Holmes would have issues with Williams. I actually think Williams was a good fighter but his suspect chin and being vulnerable to left hooks was his downfall. But Holmes didn't really have a stand out left hook so that also adds to the stylistic problems for Holmes against Williams.
     
  6. OddR

    OddR Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Only Wlad was able to dominate fights like that all the other long reigning champs at heavyweight had these types of fights so not sure.
     
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  7. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Why do you think other long reigning champs like Wlad and Lennox didn't have the same issues that Holmes did against guys trying to be world champs despite imo Holmes being more skilled then both? Did they just take their opponents more seriously? Hit harder? Better at using their size?
     
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  8. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Even if you are a Holmes true believer at the end of the day he skipped the 70s and deferred on unfinished business from the 80s in the 90s.

    If you think Holmes could have beaten everyone he didn't end up fighting the fact remains he didn't fight them. It is what it is. We are all going to view this issue different but it is an issue.
     
  9. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Why do you think Wlad and Lennox didn't have the same issues as Holmes in their reigns? Because of the change to 12 rounds or was it a style thing?
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well both those guys suffered more damaging looking losses than Larry's to Spinks. Lennox Lewis's fight with Bruno is a fine example of this type of thing occurring, disorganisation of size I think of it as, but the best single example of all is knockout loss to Rahman. Just a little out of control coming off the ropes in the way an equivalent featherweight could never be, mouth hanging open and tired after four rounds in a way an equivalent featherweight could never be.
     
  11. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That's true but at the same time they were more dominant then Holmes. Do you think that's also because of their size allowing them to hit harder then Holmes while having more flaws then him?
     
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  12. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict

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    Better at using their size is probably part of it; Holmes didn't really have a size advantage of anybody that I can recall, except Spinks.
    Also, he was fighting pretty regularly. Everybody that works for a living has a bad day at the office; in boxing you try to get those out of the way during training. But they do happen in the ring and the more you are in the ring- in real fights- there will be more of them.
    Something about Larry's style...If you remember the Tyson fight, Larry wasn't doing bad. He was trying to time Mike coming in, tying up inside, looking to hit the body. Just before the fight really went against him, Larry got up on his toes. He was moving, hands low, flicking the jab. The announcers made a big deal of it, like Larry was really about to do something, and that was when he got caught. I haven't watched his fights with Snipes and Shavers in years, but it wouldn't surprise me is he got caught similarly in those fights. I think that Larry had a tendency to get complacent when it wasn't in his best interests to do so.
    And Lennox had a couple fights- with McCall and with Rahman- where I don't think that he took the challenge as seriously as he could have and he paid for it. I don't know how seriously Wlad took Fury and they put on one of the worst fights in history.
     
  13. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I can’t knock the guy too much as he was already a pretty spectacular fighter as it was. I do however feel that he could have shown up more motivated and avoided fighting DOWN to the level of his lesser opponents. Some of those matches could have been more impressive and decisive. Then there’s also the issue of him taking on some of the better challengers of his era which he didn’t always do. But that’s more about being a better champion and not necessarily improving his own game as a fighter

    Also, if there was some way he could have shored up his defense against the right hand it would have largely behooved him to do so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2025 at 1:43 PM
  14. SouthpawsRule

    SouthpawsRule Active Member Full Member

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    Holmes’ opposition is underrated, most of his performances actually look pretty impressive in hindsight.
     
  15. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    How so?
     
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