Usyk vs Lennox

He doesn't have better footwork and he's not as skilled at close range or long range. Aj might move his head more but there isn't much separating their head movement and Lewis is more defensively effective by simply blocking or stepping back.

Lewis is more skilled with better punch selection and definitely has the superior jab even if aj has better fundamentals, so i disagree aj doesn't have better technique

 

Punch selection falls under boxing iq. Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Lewis has a bigger toolkit, Lewis has more ability at long range and close range. He is just straight up more skilled.

Better fundamentals ≠ more technical skill. Lewis would have the better technique. Help me understand why you disagree with this

 

Exactly, even ignoring resume and looking at skill. What does aj and Fury do better ? Nobody wants to explain for some reason

Fury has better head movement feints more and can switch stances, but he's offensively poor in comparison, doesn't block as often, can't disguise his right hand like Lennox and their lead hands aren't as multi faceted. Lewis would KO both of them, especially aj that might be a mismatch

 

Got to the line '…faster and slicker than Lewis ever was' and that said it all --- you can't actually know what you're talking about.

For the record, I never asked for a comparison; I only pointed out that your reaching for Mercer was somewhat impractical. You chose that fight for a single Top Trumps stat to wave around, without considering any other qualifying factors.

It's difficult to sustain a sensible discussion with someone who relies on one out-of-context statistic and builds convenient caricatures of the fighters involved.

So why should I address any more of your points when, 1) you haven't addressed any of mine, and 2) you haven't said anything meaningful to respond to?

 

The problem with the word technique is that it is too broad a term, from which several different attributes can be inferred --- even if the speaker never intended them.

If it is meant to refer to boxing fundamentals, then it is probably better to use the word "fundamentals". Technique can and really should evolve beyond the basics; not be confined to a narrow, textbook ideal.

Every great boxer ultimately developed their own technique(s) in ways that suited their style and needs. In this respect, Lewis refined his techniques to a level that clearly surpassed Joshua’s.

 

You literally didn’t say anything this whole time, you are just making snarky remarks and typing long sentences that don’t actually mean anything. I said Lewis was lumbering with bad defense and brought up the Mercer match and how much he got hit in there against a limited slugger with a bit of a jab. You said this doesn’t mean anything as styles make fights and I asked you what makes you think he is gonna do any better against Usyk. And from then on you didn’t even give any arguments. You didn’t elaborate on anything, you didn’t explain how Mercer’s style helped him more than Usyk’s would despite me asking you and your response to me saying Usyk beating similar big stiff HWs with power (Dubois, AJ etc) and HWs faster and slicker than Lewis (Fury) is just making another snarky comment about how I don’t know anything. Don’t respond if you are not gonna actually argue.

 

You continually miss the mark...

1. I countered your Mercer statistic with 'Did Mercer win?'
2. I pointed out that Lewis/Mercer was a "toe-to-toe anomaly", not typical of a Lewis fight.
3. I challenged your '60% jab stat' as Top Trumps-style analysis.
4. I highlighted that a Lewis/Usyk fight wouldn't remotely resemble Lewis/Mercer.

Just how much acknowledgement did you think your analysis deserved? Especially, when you have deliberately chosen not to engage with any of those points and claim you couldn't find another comparison. Your replies have been rightly dismissed because they're either circular or simply poor additions to an already weak take.

If you don't know enough about Lewis, then say so. Because, as it stands, it appears as though you've barely watched him.

Joshua and Dubois might be big, but neither compares to Lewis in terms of overall quality. Just off the top of my head, Lewis had the better jab, better combinations, was more fluid, more versatile and had better composure, as well as all-round adaptability.

Fury being 'faster and slicker than Lewis' is a caricature you have created. His decline post-Wilder III - arguably even from Wilder II - was evident to anyone with eyes, and even at his peak, much of his work was sloppy, dragging out fights that might have been ended much sooner.

Lewis had faster hands than most modern heavyweights, a far sounder basis on which to express his natural ability, and a much broader arsenal as a result. Your depiction of Lewis is so far off the mark that it doesn't warrant a serious reply.


Let's circle back to your initial ‘comprehensive' analysis:

You don't realize how bad of a take that is, yet you seem to believe it warrants credence.

Meanwhile, Usyk has regularly given ground to the likes of Briedis, Bellew, and Chisora - even Joshua, with his perennially tentative approach, found a way to push Usyk back at times. Usyk takes shots regularly. He loses rounds regularly. And even a flat-footed, clowning, burnout version of Fury made him look ordinary for a good spell of their first fight.

But according to you, a proven guy and class act like Lewis gets picked off, without response, all night long --- and now you're whining because you're not being taken seriously.

Be serious, and we'll have a serious debate. Until then, your commentary is fair game.

 

Not as much as Lewis lol

 

Usyk wasn't prime vs Fury so why the focus on those fights

 

Which fight would you suggest we take a look at ? Aj ?

 

To which I said "yes for many which is telling" which you spun into a snarky remark yet again. Not to mention the original point was about Lewis' defense being bad and Mercer hitting him with 60% of his jabs, not who won the fight which had no relation to anything.

Then proceeded to say nothing when I asked you to elaborate on this and explain how it would be any different against Usyk.

You didn't "challenge" anything, you just called it a Top Trumps-style analysis and left it at that. Nothing more.

Then you didn't make any further points. Just said it wouldn't resemble Lewis vs Mercer. You didn't say what would be better or worse or even different even after I said it would've been worse against Usyk, just "well it wouldn't be like this" and that's it.

More than yours considering you are the one who replied to me first.

I engaged it all and repeatedly asked you to be more specific and elaborate with your reasonings. You didn't do anything. You didn't even argue anything, you just dismissed my knowledge on the topic without taking any kind of a stand so that I wouldn't be able to actually argue or respond to anything you say.

You responded to everything I posted, that's not being "dismissed".

Another snarky comment with no real argument. I'm shocked.

They are far more similar to Lewis than any of Lewis' opponents were to Usyk, which is an advantage for Usyk here. He is familiar with 6'5 250 lbs stiff-ish SHWs with good fundamentals that try to work at range with a jab / right cross or walk him down and take his head off up close, Lewis never fought anything resembling Usyk before.

Open a poll on this and see what the real caricature is.

I don't see anything in this comment that goes against Fury being slicker and faster. Yes, Fury was declined and yes he tended to stay too long against guys that really weren't on his level. He still boxed better against Usyk than Lewis ever did. He could actually move his head unlike Lewis, had far better footwork, agility and movement than Lewis and his performance at long range against Usyk was better than anything I've seen Lewis do.

My depiction of Lewis doesn't even involve most of the things you said, no one is saying anything about his versatility, combinations, jabs, or adaptability, you are just listing random things he was good at to not address the main point of Fury being harder to catch and faster.

Snarky comment #865048045780497856096589708

So much for styles make fights lmao, none of these people fight even remotely similar to Lewis and Chisora was his first real match at HW. Usyk has an easier time against big slow SHWs that he can drown with his movement and cardio, it's pressure and awkward / slippery fighters with speed that he struggles with more. Holyfield would put him through hell, Lewis wouldn't.

Congrats, so does every single HW to ever lace it up. Lewis got KO'd dead by two people that were even barely championship material so don't even go there.

That match was one of the finest boxing performances of Fury's career and one of the only times he actually bothered to come in shape and prepared, especially after the retirement. And we are not gonna act like Usyk was in his prime either.

You guys are like a cult, you just favour whoever is the HW from the 90s and then act all high and mighty when someone has a different opinion. Yes, I think Lewis gets picked off and you are doing a terrible job of proving otherwise because you are focused on talking trash to my boxing knowledge instead of arguing why Lewis would win this. I thought this was a boxing forum, not a "we protect our favorites" club, Usyk beats Lewis and I'm dead serious, argue against it if you want to or just stop replying and wasting both our time.

 

Well, if you will elect to spend your time on compiling hot garbage for me to sift through, then that's on you. But I won't be trying too hard to break down a pointless rant like the one above.

Not only have you once again ignored the stylistic counterpoints (and this time applied double standards for good measure), but you have, quite ironically, restated exactly where you refused to engage in the first place and proved my point for me. Not much else for me to do here. Although the fact that you have done so in the firm belief that this was you addressing the points is quite priceless to be honest.

And, by the way, this is the Classic forum --- not a cult. If you want to wax lyrical about still active fighters, there's a General forum waiting for you to be heard all day, every day. Probably where fanboy flag-waving and sweeping statements belong, rather than insulting people who have been watching and involved in boxing for longer than you've been alive.

That's me done. Have a good evening.

 

That and his earlier cruiserweight bouts and WSB bouts. He fought at a much higher pace at cruiserweight

 

Well Fury is stylistically the closest to Lewis, more movement but less power, aggression and offense. Lewis is not Joyce. Joshua did alot better in the rematch being aggressive but came up short. Usyk beat Dubois easier the 2nd time. How much has he really declined ? Or maybe he's sitting on his punches more ? It's a 50/50 fight to me