This one puzzles me .... Johnson-Hart-Burns-Johnson

Whether he won or lost Johnson was not nearly as good in 1905 as he was later on.

Hart was close to the bottom of that generation of ATG MW/LHW/HWs but he could and did beat fighters better than him. I would argue Root in the next fight was one of them. Root won fair and square but he was a better fighter who could have gone further if he'd been champion.

MWs are harder to outpoint then HW point fighters if we take their size out of it. We've lost sight of this fact because it no longer matters but here it does matter. Hart could stimy a guy like Johnson for 20 rounds but not a Burns, Jack Twin Sullivan or O Brien.

When discussing Jack Johnsons age and prime normally a fighter peaks when their physical capabilities are highest. But during this generation boxing as a sport was evolving rapidly as you had the first generation of people who grew up with it. And if a fighter from 1905 evolved with the sport they were going to be much better in 1915 even when were physically much less capable.

 

Perhaps imposed is the wrong word.

Johnson might not have been able to keep Hart off him, while he could just toss Burns around like a ragdoll.

When the size difference is not great, pressure along can achieve something against a clever boxer.

When you match Burns against Hart, then at least he was going to be faster and cleverer.

 

Burns and Root had more power then Twin Sullivan. And while Twin Sullivan was better than Burns as a boxer Burns was no question a more effective HW. Same with Schreck.

Twin Sullivan was still a good HW he was a title claimant during Burns reign he was viable. But theres guys who he'd be favored against at MW/LHW who were better at HW like Burns, Schreck and Root. Sullivans really hard to rate at HW or even LHW in this era for that reason.

Ketchels even harder to rate at HW.

 

Tommy Burns, first man to win the title by ragebait

 

Hart was about an inch shorter than Johnson and only one pound heavier.
Ketchel wasn't faster than Johnson how do you know Burns was?

 

If I recall Pollack's book correctly, Johnson took his foot off the gas and Hart kept plowing forward, even having a couple really good rounds.

Next day reports surmised that neither was in Jeffries' class based on their performances.

At the end of the day it seems that Johnson learned something from this bout going forward.

 

Twin Sullivan & Schreck really suffered from sporadic performances. Schreck was often not trained well due to his height he would appear fat. Twin Sullivan was often not aggressive playing it safe. But I think they both about as talented as Burns. Aside from O brien which I'm not sure was on the level. The only other fight Burns won as champion against anyone good was Bill Lang. I think both Schreck & Twin could beat him.Bill Lang.

Twin sullivan at his best could beat Burns. I think beating up third rate stiffs made him appear better than he was... Tommy Burns resume is rather weak in general he remind's very much of James Braddock.

I have the Three bunched up right next to each other in ranking for their era...(no weight class).

19 Philly O brien
20 Tommy Burns
21 Twin Sullivan

& I have Hart at 17

and the highest ranking would be Root at 13.

In the newspapers Root was regarded as the premier lightheavy prior to fighting for Championship. He was the original guy who was kicking all the older stars asses really good stars in Byers & Mccoy & dick O brien & Tommy Ryan. He's lightyears ahead of Tommy Burns. As a heavyweight probably not but as a fighter definitely. Root's barnstorm of the early 1900's was one of the most impressive of any fighter in the era. He jumped right into the deep end & not only held his own but had success against veteran fighter's still in their prime.

Jack O Brien kinda did the same thing as he had much success against lot's of veteran fighters, but not at the level of Jack Root.

Not to take anything away from Tommy Burns but he wasn't really a big name prior to winning from Hart he was just a guy. Hence why He reminds me of James Braddock.

 

I JUST read an old post on this forum that described the fight as a very one-sided beatdown based on old newspaper reports. I'll see if I can find it.

 

You misunderstand me.

I am saying that Burns was not faster than Johnson, and this made his situation impossible as the smaller man.

He might have been faster than Hart, which put him in the fight with Hart.

Meanwhile Hart wouldn't necessarily have needed to be faster than Johnson, because he was big enough to hang with him.

 

The Hart win over Johnson was likely a case where ineffective aggression was rewarded.

 

Similar scenario to Charles-Lane. Charles should have had it mathematically sown up, but let up and let Lane make a good show in the last few rounds.

 

A variable I'd like to insert into this conversation is Johnsons win over Gardner. Gardner IMO was better than Hart. Gardner was the best fighter early Jack Johnson fought who was clearly in their "prime".

Jack won a 20 round decision but scored 2 knockdowns in a fight that sounds otherwise very similar to Johnson v Hart. While they had different refs both fights were actually in the same ring.

Per the San Francisco Chronicle on boxrec " Gardner was down in the 8th and 14th rounds. Gardner was busy throughout, but the size handicap coupled with Johnson's defensive prowess kept him from landing meaningful blows and the bout was slow and uninteresting to spectators."

 

Are you supporting the size-ist argument!!!!???

 

Not in an unqualified manner.

I mean lets face it, Burns win over Hart undermines it.

 

The Marvin Hart that fought Burns wasn’t the same Marvin Hart that beat Johnson. Going into the Johnson fight Hart was a very hungry fighter and in top condition. The Johnson fight was a make or break opportunity for Hart and he made the most of it, but like a lot of fighters that reach the top or get close to the top he couldn’t handle prosperity and quickly went downhill.

Hart’s Manager-trainer Jack McCormick walked on him, since Hart became very arrogant and uncoachable after the Johnson victory.

Tommy Ryan also almost walked on Hart going into the Burns fight, since Hart showed up to camp at over 220 lbs, but was talked into staying until after the fight.