This one puzzles me .... Johnson-Hart-Burns-Johnson

Really this is very interesting I wasn't aware of the manager walking on him. This really explains things....that's a major change in his regimen happening. Do you know when exactly he left Hart? Great reporting job.

 

In his very early days Johnson could appear literally malnourished - it seems a lot of people don’t realise that Jack was barely cracking the SMW limit when he fought Choynski.

Even by 1905, while well muscled, he still didn’t look to be particularly well fed (see below). He was still a good 20 lbs shy of the weight he came in at vs Ketchel and Jeffries.

From all the accounts that I’ve read, I still think he was robbed vs Hart, with Greggains pulling the rug on and nullifying (in terms of scoring) the very style that had seen Johnson win a string of fights over several years prior to the Hart fight.

Many accounts do seem to suggest that Hart was disproportionately scored for what amounted to ineffective aggression for the better part of the fight.

Again, his face was reported to be a bloody pulp at fights end while Johnson didn’t have a mark on him.

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Its not pulling the rug out from under a fighter to tell him ahead of time he better fight or he will be penalized. That was literally the rule back in the day. It still should be. We'd have better fights and a lot less Mayweathers and Mayweather wanna bes. Johnson was coming off of several performances where it was felt he loafed and wasnt giving the paying fans their moneys worth. He knew the terms, he accepted them, dont lay the blame at Greggains feet for Johnson underperforming. You can watch the films of any of his fights outside of Willard and see that he carried opponents which was frowned upon, whether you were toying with them or trying to save stamina.

 

More than just that RockyValdez. He regularly Adopted his wrestling tactics in the ring & would "hold" Smaller opponent's by the wrist rendering them unable to throw a punch which not only is NOT fan base friendly but highly illegal. He was constantly doing foul tactics holding fireman flynn & i'm sure he probably did it Pre-title run. Clinching in one thing holding people arms & wrists so they can't throw a punch should have got him DQ in numerous fights, he was taking his slow lazy style & making it much worse.

 

Excessive clinching isnt/wasnt legal either. It was allowed as long as the fighters were actually fighting, and more forgiven then (infighting) than today but Johnson would clinch for long stretches while doing nothing. So when a referee instructs the fighters to fight for the benefit of the people who came to actually see a fight Im not going to blame said referee when the fighter goes into the fight knowing the score and still stalls.

And, yes, he could have just as easily been disqualified for excessive clinching and nobody today would likely second guess the result as they do with the decision because we can watch Johnson clinch excessively in just about every film we have of him. The fact that the referee gave Johnson the opportunity to fight and win is lost on some of Johnsons fans.

 

I'm going to get a T-shirt with "MFers be sleeping on Tommy Burns" printed on it.

 

Johnson had a number of successive wins over several years going into the Hart fight without being pulled up or dictated to on how he should fight until Greggains.

So, but for Greggains, that wasn’t how it was.

Yes, as Johnson applied it, such clinching/holding was allowed. If it wasn’t, they would’ve DQ’d him in a heartbeat. Johnson was a more than acceptable counter puncher - a style that speaks for and justifies itself.

When Jeffries manhandled opposition , even hurling them, he was celebrated for his “Herculean” strength. Different strokes for different folks.

In 1910, against Johnson, Jeffries did his utmost to prove that he was superior in strength, but Johnson bested him in that otherwise celebrated dept.

Is there a correlation between poor attendance and the alleged complaints re Johnson’s style of fighting? - at least not that I’m aware of.

If Johnson somehow wasn’t “fighting”, how was it that Hart bore the heavy marks of being badly beaten while Johnson came out completely unscathed?

Bottom line is, Jeffries refused to fight Johnson but the pressure on him to do so was mounting.

The “removal” of Johnson from the HW picture via the robbery loss to Hart allowed Jeffries to then retire, “unencumbered “ by Johnson’s otherwise protracted eligibility for a shot.

 

Its moot, not mute. “Moot” would mean the point is not debateable. If you think its not debateable that Mayweather was the best fighter of the 21st century there isnt much hope for you.

 

You are ignoring the circumstances of those fights. Yes he had several wins but several of them were criticized for his loafing. There were many complaints. In an era when the sport was being operated club to club by promoters who wanted to provide the best draw for the paying customers action was the rule. Excessive clinching without infighting wasnt seen as fighting. It was akin to a fighter running today. So Greggains demanding Johnson fight or be penalized was not only acceptable but given that he could have warned him during the fight and disqualified him for continuous infractions Id say it was a courtesy.

Fans today, judging a fight theyve never seen based on 21st century norms, in an era where fights are twelve rounds and a stalling fraud like Mayweather can be called “the greatest fighter of the 21st century” by people who dont know what real boxing is, should read up on eras when their entertainment dollars were protected by the officials. I dont view that fight much different from De La Hoya-Trinidad where one fighter may have been superior in the rounds he actually fought but threw away enough rounds that he lost the fight trying to be cute.

Since neither of us have seen the fight Id say my opinion is just as valid as your certainty that Johnson was robbed.

 

I don’t think I’ve ignored the circumstances at all.

Besides Greggains, which presiding refs chastised Johnson for his style and tried to instruct him on how he should fight?

Also, you would guess that the gates for Johnsons’s fights might’ve suffered - did they?

Johnson knew not only how to hold but also how to land damaging punches in close whilst holding -

A guy aggressively moving forward, getting belted coming in and landing little for his troubles shouldn’t win fights - not now or back in 1905.

 

About a month after the Jack Root fight, so in August 1905. McCormick wanted Hart to fight every 3-4 months and for Hart to stay under 200 lbs year round, but Hart didn't agree. After the Root fight Hart and his older brother Russell started overruling all of McCormick's decisions, so McCormick walked.

Here is a piece from a Chicago paper in August of 1905.

According to a despatch from Chicago Jack McCormick and Marvin Hart have parted company, Hart and McCormick have been friends for years, the latter acting in the capacity of both trainer and manager. The separation, it is said, was due to the fact that Hart refused to keep an engagement in Chicago which McCormick made for him. McCormick has done a lot for Hart and ever since he joined the southerner's camp the pair have done very well. McCormick still retains a high opinion of Hart and thinks that it will be some time before he is beaten. It is reported that Hart's brother is to supplant McCormick as manager and trainer.
https://imgur.com/hRofMf9

After McCormick walked Jim Jeffries advised Hart to hire Tommy Ryan and Hart did, but it didn't work. Hart wouldn't follow any of Ryan's instructions and Ryan immediately walked on Hart after the Burns fights.

Here is Ryan's opinion on Hart and he doesn't hold back.

"I want to tell you about that Hart fight," says Ryan. "I took Hart out there, and I was with him all the time, and seconded him those 20 rounds. Hart was bad. I tell you there wasn't any robbing about that fight at all. Burns beat him at his own game, and is ready to fight Hart again at any time. Burns must not be underrated. He's good. Hart went 20 rounds without drawing a breath, so he must have been in some kind of shape. I saw him train, though, and he did not do it the way I would."

"For instance, he would drink five or six glasses of water at meal times. I spoke to him about it, and he said that was the way he always trained. When I saw that I stopped working with him. I was only out there twice. He would not take my advice, so I quit."

"The trouble is Hart wants to be a 200-pounder, and fight at that weight, when he should fight at 185. The way I figure it, he can't fight. When I used to box with him he would tell me he couldn't box, but he could fight."

"Now, Burns beat him fair and square. There was no use hollering about it. He can do it again. I believe Burns out-roughed him in the clinches and made him hold out his hands. Burns would see Hart start a swing, and he would step inside it and turn his side, and Hart's face would go running bump into Burns' head. Hart told me Burns was gouging him, and I told him to butt back and gouge, too, if the referee was standing for it, but he wouldn't do it. I think Hart can't fight - that's all there is to it - and Burns is liable to beat him again if they meet. Hart must have gone back on what he was in his earlier fights, and must have gone back suddenly".
https://imgur.com/MgMbfjn
https://imgur.com/Ml8yINQ

 

So Hart had a drinking problem … he wanted to be hydrated so he drank water with his meals, lol.

What a different world.

 

Interesting. Johnson himself was at least one fighter who made a point of advocating the drinking of water.

The imbibing of champers between rounds is the one that always gets me.

One description of one of Jeffries had Jeff declining the offer of champagne between rounds. Whaaatt?

I wonder if his corner thought “Ooh, what’s up with Jeff, there must be something wrong!”. Lol.