RJJ Vs Toney Rematch -Light heavy?

Jones didn't age at 175 until after he dropped back down from heavyweight. He cut a swathe at 175, only losing by DQ to Griffin who he obliterated in return. Titles defenses, unifications etc. Jones was firing on all cylinders for years at 175 for over half a decade. Toney did next to nothing there.

 

At least he showed consistency and had success tho Ferg. Toney didn't. Toney can't catch him. He loves people coming to him and Jones is just a mirage for someone with average feet.

 

Best vs best 175lbs versions in a fantasy fight scenario = RJJ wide UD. Both were in their respective primes for their 168lbs contest and the extra 7lbs neither drastically helps or hinder either, to the extent required for a such a dramatic change in outcome.

Real timeline scenario = RJJ wide UD. No version of Toney would stand a chance vs pre-Ruiz RJJ at 175lbs and by the time RJJ was back down at 175lbs post Ruiz, Toney was at HW.

 

Yeah mate i think you are getting influenced by post Ruiz Jones. Tarver in no way shows the measure of Jones at 175 in any of their fights.

 

It is not about the extra 7 Ibs. It is about Toney being in shape.In their 168 showdown, Toney was not right physically.

 

Griffin and an old Mc Callum showed that it is possible to compete with that version of Roy Jones. I guess it is safe to say that a fully prepared Toney would put up a competitive fight.

 

Fergy I have to say this is a wild take from you to be quite honest.

Toney was competing in the same Light Heavyweight era ? He moved up virtually at the sametime as RJJ ? Yet he had virtually no success at the weight ?

So how you can criticise RJJs opposition when RJJ destroyed a fighter in Montel Griffin who beat Toney twice at Light Heavyweight ? And destroyed another fighter in Reggie Johnson who lost a razor thin decision to Toney ?

Put Toney in with the same opposition that RJJ fought at Light Heavyweight he would lose to Virgil Hill and its highly debatable he would beat Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, etc.

Whether you think RJJ was superman or not at Light Heavyweight Toney did virtually nothing at the weight. So where is this amazing performance from Toney at Light Heavyweight that's going to happen ? Because it never happened in real time.

RJJ would be amongst the top 20 Light Heavyweights of all time based on what he did at the weight despite your criticism. Toney on the other hand wouldnt even be in the top 50.

Sorry Fergy but the RJJ who destroyed Griffin, Hill, Johnson, would dominate Toney again and I don't see how anyone could see it different. Based on what happened in their actual fight, based on Light Heavyweight being Toney's worst weightclass, and based on RJJ being a stylistic nightmare for Toney.

 

RJJ was 35 years old and dropped a ridiculous amount of weight coming back down from Heavyweight.

The RJJ who was destroying the likes of Reggie Johnson, Virgil Hill, Montel Griffin 2, its night/day difference.

And regardless Tarver had a tougher style for RJJ he was a big southpaw Light Heavyweight at 6'2 with a longer reach than RJJ and Tarver had concussive power at the weight.

Toney on the other hand is 5'9 with slow feet RJJ would outspeed him easily again at Light Heavyweight.

I urge you to watch RJJs 12 round domination of Reggie Johnson and then explain to me how in the world Toney is going to beat that version of RJJ.

 

Light Heavyweight didn't suit Toney though ? That's factually incorrect. Toney had a modest 8-3 record at the weight and never beat a single top 10 rated Light Heavyweight.

Light Heavyweight certainly suited RJJ alot better than Toney as he won 13 World title fights at the weight compared to 0 for Toney.

Yes RJJ had issues vs Griffin the 1st time but still would've stopped him in the 9th round had he not had a moment of madness hitting Griffin whilst he was down.

And you're talking about "motivation" in regards to Toney.

But we all see what a "motivated" RJJ did to Griffin in the 2nd fight something Toney couldn't replicate vs Griffin the 2nd time they fought. And I would think Toney would've been "motivated" to revenge a loss to Griffin.

RJJ never recovered after the Ruiz fight because he dropped a ridiculous amount of weight at age 35 which was the wrong decision.

Get Toney to lose a ridiculous amount of weight at age 35 and get him back down fighting at Light Heavyweight and see how he fares.

 

It makes alot of sense actually.

RJJ won 13 world title fights at Light Heavyweight and beat 11 top 10 ranked Light Heavyweights.

Toney won 0 world title fights at Light Heavyweights and beat a grand total of 0 top 10 ranked Light Heavyweights.

Meaning hypothetically there's no reason RJJ wouldn't be heavily favoured to beat Toney clearly again which was objectively Toney's worst weightclass.

Not alot of people thought Toney beat Thadzi that is simply not true the concensus is that Thadzi clearly beat Toney.

The Griffin fights were close but Toney didn't do enough in the later rounds and let Griffin outhustle him.

If Toney couldn't get motivated for the biggest fight of his life the 1st time vs RJJ at objectively his best weight. Why would Toney magically be super motivated vs RJJ at objectively Toney's worst weight ? When Toney couldn't even show fire trying to revenge a loss to Griffin.

BTW these are my scorecards are Griffin fights.

James Toney vs Montel Griffin 1

1 Griffin
2 Griffin
3 Toney
4 Toney
5 Toney
6 Toney
7 Griffin
8 Toney
9 Griffin
10 Griffin
11 Griffin
12 Griffin

Griffin 115-113

So the general feeling is that Toney was hard done by in the Griffin fights but i actually felt Toney legitimately lost this fight. He was too casual for me and didn't show enough urgency, especially in the later rounds in which Griffin to my eyes stole the rounds with the more flashy work and appearing to want it more than Toney.

The biggest talking point in this fight is rounds 3 and 7 both fighters were wobbled by single punches.....

Griffin almost went down from a right hand in the 3rd and was all over the place and to me it appeared to be a knockdown.

Then Toney was wobbled in the 7th and fell back into the ropes with only the ropes holding him up.

So it appeared to me 2 legitimate knockdowns may of been missed.

Overall it was a decent technical fight nothing special but decent, Toney landed the harder punches the issue was he allowed the smaller man to back him too much and steal rounds from him just by being the aggressor. Griffin showed a good jab and actually outjabbed Toney and whilst Griffin's punches didn't have much oomph in them i liked his aggression and workrate more. Toney is so frustrating to watch if he would've just lifted the pace a bit more it was a winnable fight for him, but he was far too casual for my liking and he let the smaller man outhustle him.

James Toney vs Montel Griffin 2

1 Toney
2 Griffin
3 Griffin
4 Toney
5 Toney
6 Griffin
7 Toney
8 Toney
9 Griffin
10 Griffin
11 Toney
12 Griffin

114-114 Draw

Toney did slightly better in the rematch he seemed to be more active with the jab and targeted the body of Griffin with the jab also. Griffin was pretty much the same awkward/slippery and trying to go to Toney's left to create punching angles.

But yet again just like the 1st fight Toney didn't press enough in the later rounds when he really could've stamped his authority on the fight. His corner pleaded with him to go all out in the 12th round but he did virtually nothing in the round letting Griffin dance around him and get a free round.

A few things to note about this fight.....

Lederman's scorecard and the HBO team were way off on this fight they seemed to suggest Toney won this fight handily that is complete nonsense and Lederman's scorecard of 117-111 is ridiculous.

But saying that one of the judges scorecards was even worse in actual fact it might be one of the worst scorecard's i've ever seen 119-109 to Griffin ? what in the world was he watching ?

But all in all another decent tactical fight but Toney yet again didn't press enough in the later rounds.

 

McCallum didn't win a single round against Jones

It's well established that Jones had enormous respect for McCallum historically and just went thru the motions. In his next fight, his last ever, McCallum won plenty of rounds against Toney.

McCallum didn't "compete" against Jones but he sure did x 3 vs Toney.

 

I'm not trying to have a go at you I'm just trying to give you a realistic scenario.

Toney was unremarkable at Light Heavyweight and it seems like your biggest argument is that Toney would somehow be highly motivated to revenge a loss to RJJ and put in an ATG performance against RJJ.

But Toney went missing from 1995-2000 with 0 notable wins in like a 5 year period. Toney couldn't even show motivation or real fire in his belly to raise his game vs Griffin in their rematch.

Toney's corner were pleading with Toney to win the last round vs Griffin and Toney did nothing. And this was to revenge a loss to Griffin that could've gone a long way towards Toney getting a fight with RJJ and yet Toney didn't show desire.

So that's why I'm saying where is this magical performance and real desire coming from Toney ? Because it never happened at any point in Toney's run at Light Heavyweight in real time.

Stylistically a speedster like RJJ is all wrong for a slow footed counter puncher like Toney and especially at Light Heavyweight where Toney didn't do anything.

Having the fight at Heavyweight would be the best scenario for Toney because he would have a weight advantage. But I still don't see Toney beating RJJ at any weight honestly it's a stylistic issue simple as that.