This one puzzles me .... Johnson-Hart-Burns-Johnson

Aside from viewing the Johnson vs Hart as a robbery (just imo), there is still the question of exactly how hard could Johnson actually punch?

While Hart was durable, it seems a bit strange that Johnson couldn’t or wouldn’t get him out of there.

In round 9 or 10 of their fight it seems Johnson put some effort into KO’ing Hart but couldn’t quite seal the deal.

Johnson’s cautious style might be part of the answer as to why he didn’t secure KOs in fights in which he seemed more than capable of getting the knock out.

However, I’d think a man holding the boxing IQ that Johnson did would also understand that electing not to take an opponent out as and when the opportunities presented could in fact lend to greater risk later in the fight.

I guess to come out of a fight totally unmarked, Johnson had to fight exactly as he did - making defence his highest priority While it doesn’t impugn his courage or durability, Johnson did not like or see the sense in taking any punishment at all.

Though 5 years later and near 20 lbs heavier, I see the power in Johnson’s punches vs Jeffries as highly impressive - the force behind his shots being unmistakable.

Was he really that quirky a fighter to turn his power off and on due to caution and/or only when arbitrarily inclined or has Jack been given a little bit too much credit for holding his punch in reserve?

Interestingly, both Johnson and Hart claimed that they damaged their right hands during the fight - in rounds 5/6 and round 2 respectively. Possible but also impossible to say for sure.

I guess the much smaller gloves of the day made fighters more prone to hand damage and/or them not punching for all they were worth lest they incurred hand damage.

Not at all a fail safe indicator but Johnson had the physique that implied that he could likely punch quite hard - particularly given his back/shoulder musculature.

Interesting tid bit from Adams book that I had forgotten - after winning the fight, Hart rationalised himself as deserving a shot at Jeffries since he (Hart) had beaten the guy (Johnson) who Jeffries had been side stepping for so long.

Speculated agendas and motives aside, just taking the outcome in its own right, Hart being awarded the decision definitely provided as a quick release of the mouthing pressure on Jeffries to drop his colour line and fight Johnson. No question on that, imo.

Though not as easily as he did in 1910 but if Johnson had matched Jeffries in 1905, I think he would’ve beaten Jeff.

Besides being a superior fighter overall, I think Johnson also had just the right style to get the better of Jeff.

Bit of joke and quite rich for Jeff to fight the likes of Munro in 1904 only to exclude both Hart and Johnson going forward as not being worthy of his presence in the ring - let alone Jeff being okay with rematching and beating up the inactive relics of Fitz and Corbett in 1902 and 1903 respectively - and the trouble Fitz gave Jeff in their rematch countered the suggestion that Jeff was somehow a greatly improved fighter, imo.

 

If the Johnson v Jeffries fight had been over 12 rounds ,and refereed by Greggains,he would probably have given the decision to Jeffries!

 

And that’s not much of an exaggeration, if at all.

Apparently the white spectators at Johnson - Hart also jeered Jack for his “roughness” on break aways.

I mean, did they want Johnson to be aggressive in there or not?

What a load of bollocks!

 

Jack was mainly a point fighter who took awhile to stop even small opponents. Its his biggest flaw and its why he lost his belt in the end. Jacks biggest early KOs were against old Fitz, Felix and regressing Martin.

Jack had some KD power. Gardner is a better fighter then Hart IMO and the difference between Jack beating Gardner and losing to Hart in 2 debatable decisions is that Jack got Gardner down twice and did not get Hart. Johnsons not a mover who couldn't hurt his opponents but he really needed time to accumulate damage and wear an opponent out. Which I agree this makes him a bad matchup for Jeffries in his prime hes at least got a path he could at least contest the rounds and with a favorable judge he can get the decision. Someone like Langford or even a Lang are going to put Jeffries into a woodchipper.

 

You sound really important. Are you a famous boxing expert or something?

I cant wait to see you on some of my other inconsistent posts.

Stay safe buddy, chat soon.

 

I hear you.

However, Johnson was nothing if not often an enigma in the ring.

I understand that some fighters can hide behind total domination otherwise with the suggestion that they carried an opponent who they could’ve KO’d at any point otherwise.

Some claimed that Ali carried Terrell, such was the comprehensive and easy nature of his victory but at least Ali was honest and settled those pundits up by admitting that he didn’t carry Terrell, he simply wasn’t able to KO/stop him.

Now this may or may not be true of Johnson in some fights but there does appear to be quite a few fights in which Johnson could’ve ended matters far sooner IF he was so inclined.

When he won the title, Johnson dumped Burns hard - twice in the first round.

Immediate domination and significant damage exacted. It was simply a slow and very deliberate twisting of the knife thereafter.

All things being equal, just imo, he could’ve just as easily put Burns out in < 4 rounds.

The Ketchel fight is another example. of course Stanley was much smaller but the crux point is that Johnson did carry him until Stanley raised his ire.

Also, in his first fight vs Flynn, it’s reported that Flynn made a scathing, racist just prior to Johnson promptly flattening him.

In their rematch on film, Johnson is absolutely toying with Flynn, at no point putting the pedal to the metal to end matters, which I think he could’ve done…again, if he was so inclined.

It was often all about putting on a show/performing some torture to Johnson and protraction of fights were also beneficial to the sale of fight films.

I think after their fight in Reno, Jeffries was quoted as saying that he didn’t realise that Johnson had such a “stiff” punch.

Per observations from fighters like Fitz and Sharkey, Johnson could’ve easily had Jeff out of there in under 4 rounds - and, just imo, I think the vision of the fight supports that view.

Of course the Hart fight wasn’t filmed so associated motives don’t apply there but without bias, the accounts generally suggest that Johnson beat the **** out of Hart.

Now some might argue as to why Johnson didn’t make a stronger claim for a shot by KO’ing Hart - but Johnson was already overdue on a shot and Jeff made it clear that he still wasn’t budging, even when accounting for Johnson’s actually beating Hart in whatever manner it might’ve been achieved.

Funny, I don’t know if anyone else ever read same - but I did read an article stating that z Johnson purportedly claimed that during Hart fight, a Hart backer appeared in Johnson’s line of view, shifting his coat to expose a gun that he was carrying.

After seeing that, Johnson claimed that he took the foot off the pedal, mindful not to KO Hart outright.

Not at all saying that is fact but I did read it eons ago. Of course Johnson also claimed that he threw the Willard fight (he was strapped for cash and sold the story to Fleischer who didn’t actually run it to print). I think it’s pretty obvious that claim wasn’t true at all.

I mean it is a fact that Johnson was psychologically up against it given the racism of often predominantly white spectators. Suffice to say, it was also reported that spectators were required to check their guns in Reno.

Reading the accounts of Johnson - Langford it sounds as if Johnson did everything but KO Sam. Dropped him multiple times and beat him up badly.

Even Ali marvelled at Johnson doing as much as he did while potentially facing great perils.

Finally, for sure, I’ve pondered as to exactly how hard Johnson could punch - and it seems something he did want to prove on some occasions to any doubters as at the time.

I can also see the possible errs in uniformly affording him the benefit of the doubt in instances in which he didn’t achieve a KO in fights that, if he did actually have a fair punch, a KO should’ve been the more likely outcome.

 

I’ve been thinking of having my own signature sign off.

How about, “I’m right, you’re wrong, talk again soon…if you’re lucky”?

 

With Johnson the trend is fairly overwhelming though its not about any one fight. Jacks opponents while very good P4P were smaller then any HW champs opponents. If Johnson had power it'd show.

The other big problem with Jacks resume is a lot of his best wins came when a fighter was clearly not their best whether they were very young, old or they had a "comeback" later on. Not just Jeffries(who I don't think was that good) but Langford, Jeanette, McVea, Tony Ross, Fitz and Felix all fall into this category. Martin had the most abrupt regression in the history of the HW division. I would add Flynn but Johnson rematched him.

So you say he almost knocked out Langford. It was a 15 round fight and Langford was a 20 year old just jumping from MW. Langford has the most fights ever against HW contenders. I count 78. At this point Langford had 2 fights with a Jeanette who was just breaking north of .500. Johnson was king herod going after baby Jesus.

 

I disagree that the trend you’re advocating is overwhelming.

Aside from purported experience, McVey was relatively big, strong and powerful - I think he outweighed Johnson by a whole 20 lbs in one of their fights, outweighing Jack otherwise during their series.

In one of their fights (their last I believe), Johnson had Sam clearly beat over the first 10 rounds, including scoring multiples KDs but then took the foot off the pedal. Come round 20, Johnson simply arced up and put the durable Sam out.

MvVey might’ve improved after the fact of his fights vs Johnson - but what, specifically, were the improvements to suggest that he would do any better against Johnson?

The point re the Langford fight is that, notwithstanding Sam’s size/experience, even though the fight went 15 rounds - it does not necessarily reflect Johnson’s power of punch, nor his ability to end the fight sooner if he chose to do so.

I wouldn’t argue that 1910 Langford and on would provide as much stiffer competition for Johnson (than he did in 1906) but I believe that Johnson, as at that time, still certainly had Langford’s measure.

Johnson himself was about 20 lbs heavier than he was when they first met.

For his natural size, Johnson appeared downright emaciated in several of his pre title square off photos and other photos besides.

Many people don’t realise that even at about 22/23 yo in 1901, an obviously undernourished Johnson was barely cracking the 170 lb mark - hardly different to the weight Choynski came in at when they fought.

Despite equitable weight, clearly worse for Johnson given his natural frame/size. On the other hand, Choynski weighed what was exactly right for his own natural size.

It wasn’t an election or by choice of course, but for all intents and purposes, Johnson fought Choy at an involuntary “catch weight” that was very much to his disadvantage.

 

Wherever you want to beautiful

Stay safe buddy, chat soon.