Which bummed you out more?

A cracking pair of posts.

 

I think Ali was pretty close to his pinnacle. But at only 25 when he left the game there may yet have been room for more blossoming.

 

Hi Buddy.
Not quite sure I understand the " Ali always loses " he won 2 out of 3, and the first was a lot closer ( for me ) than is scripted, as for them fighting when Ali was in his prime ( say 67 ) I would go with a wide points win for him, that stage Ali beats any and all other champs down the ages imo, agree that Joe always gives him trouble, as did Norton.
stay safe rd, chat soon buddy.
Mike.

 

Was it lack of dedication that led to the loss to Douglas? That seems to be taken for granted, but I'm not so sure. It wasn't Mike at his very best, no, but he didn't look terrible to me either. The weight was quite normal, which it often isn't for HWs who have neglegted camp and to me it was rather Douglas who looked very good.

But let's say a more dedicated and prepared Tyson gets past Douglas, does he also beat Holy? Yes, Tyson was past his best when they met in reality but so was Holy, and still he dominated. In the first fight Tyson didn't seem to be very well prepared, but in the second he was and Holy took even more charge early on in that one.

Maybe things would have been different against a well prepared Tyson in 1990, but that's another big maybe. Bigger, I'd say, than that a more disciplined Tyson would have beaten Douglas.

So there's a lot of assumption needed to believe that even a disciplined Tyson keeps his streak through the year 1990.

And then, assuming he stays out of prison, there's Bowe and Lewis coming up a few years later...


Ali on the other hand beat everyone who emerged during his exile as it is, but of course lost the first to Frazier. But even that Ali, without the same legs, took Frazier to the brink. And then beat him two times afterwards. So, of course, we have to make assumptions even here, but I think it's a smaller one that Ali beats Frazier and everyone else if he stays on in the late 60's. Norton around the mid 70's, when Ali would have started slowing down anyway, is the most likely banana peel in my eyes.

 

Tyson wasn’t 100% but no HW is every night, you can’t maintain a peak forever however that was Buster Douglas executing the perfect plan, that’s how you beat Tyson you needed nerves of steel though and I think had Douglas showed up again even if Tyson was that scowling tiger he isn’t winning because those flaws were very prominent in his system. I don’t think Ali could fight the way Douglas did that night though maybe Holmes… Holyfield could’ve used a SIMILAR plan as the 95 bout but I’m not sure he’d win in 88. I think next to Louis, Tyson is one of the few HWs who isn’t dramatically bigger then Ali who beats him handily, that’s boxing though losing to Douglas one day and bodying a line up of contenders the next, I think Tyson was the only guy I heard of that they were considering a two contenders in a night bout such was his air of dominance.

 

Well for me Mike the first bout is the only one where both men were closest to their stylistic prime and fitness. The second was marred with excessive clinching (should've been a DQ imo) and the third was obviously way past prime for both men. I personally disagree and I think Frazier beats younger Ali. Just my take mate. Thanks for the well wishes. I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

I’m Ali’s 3 years of exile he was learning, training and sparring as a fact and getting paid to do so (he ripped Bugner off 10 large) he came into the “FOTC” off two full training camps for legitimate contenders… Ali was 29 in his physical prime, good weight, game and undefeated he had been boxing since he was 14 so that’s 15 years of experience and plenty of sparring to get his timing right… he was as good as he was going to be and he lost to Joe Frazier, if anything if people think moving more would’ve helped they didn’t see the 2nd fight where the inverse of that is how he cheesed a win out of Frazier “moar dancing” ain’t going to cut it. Frazier licked him, Norton licked him and a combination of both there strats is why Louis would club him like a baby seal… okay maybe I got to far lol.

 

Well I'm not too sure about Ali's condition, since I'm not as well versed on Heavyweight historically as other divisions. All I will say is that I do think Ali gets way too much leeway for his head pulling and grappling tactics that other fighters don't really get. I think people have this idea of an Ali that would be as light and agile as the early 60s yet as durable and well built as his later years, which is just a fantasy imo. Ali was great H2H but he had some glaring stylistic weaknesses.

 

That last part about Ali having “glaring stylistic weaknesses” sometimes what’s comfortable gets a fighter, Ali was capable of rolling the right hand under Wiley for the Ellis fight but then largely abandoned it for pulling back in straight lines, I suppose it “felt” better he’d fought a certain way since he was old enough to make up his own mind… there are a few issues that rear there head all the time with Ali that were easy fixes… one being that pulling back on a hook means the guy can just extend the arc of his punch as he throws it and catch you (like Frazier) 2nd he liked to “lean back / pull back” in tandem with his feet and he’d often end up at the ropes Norton did this to him countless times with his jab leading the way, Im going to make a “cornered” counter for the first 2 Norton fights one day to demonstrate why Louis would do the same. 3rd he dropped his uppercut so low you could hit him with a hook both Frazier and Norton did this to him. I’ll also say he wasn’t just a sucker for the left hook but also the right hook to the body, the floating rib he extended his left so often to deal with rights. I agree, too much leeway what he did was BS and protected by the system but I think he also gets too much credit as a boxer capable of fighting someone like Klitschko when he was basically in the same boat as he and Liston as a big guy often punching down in weight on guys, you can’t trot out Terrell and Bugner to say “look how he deals with fighters like Lennox” lol I agree RD the 2nd bout with Frazier was “shameful” by the standards of even a novice. I think Ali’s chin was the same in the 60s as the 70s but he became more aware of his surroundings as an older fighter and adapted to a more stationary style, in the 70s the bunny hop routine was pretty limited to the Euro guys that no one heard of he beat up occasionally.

 

Voted for Tyson only because Alis prime would have taken place when I was a toddler

 

He was a mess when he got out of prison, even worse. The thing that saved his life and turned him around was his current wife -- he's flat out said it. Only once they got together did he get his **** in order, pay off all his debt, get control of himself, develop a movie career, etc.

I know nothing about her except that she must be a damn good supportive spouse who understands him better than anyone ever has.

 

Hi Buddy.
You make sensible and salient points, as I have come to expect over the time I have followed your posts, your modest and informative musings have been a constant on the forum, and all done with a nice polite manner, and yes the 2nd fight was a debacle, in fact after leaving my mum and dad's place at 3am in the morning, traveling 15 miles by cab to see the fight on CCT, in a cinema, with a back seat surrounded by drunks, I walked out after 6 rounds, Ali ruined the fight, he should have been thrown out, this from a Ali admirer, thank goodness we had 1 and 3, despite some posters rebuttals', I still have Ali as No 1, and I am too old to change now.
stay safe rd, look forward to many interesting and varied discussions , from your goodself.
Mike.

 

I meant as in if not for prison and more scrutiny, despite the off the rails rants, he could've easily died somewhere in a brothel or on the street, as he was clearly in a bit of free fall prior.

Tyson post prison was often a caricature, playing up to the cameras to maximise the bad boy image. Combination of prison and religion make for ingredients of despair and hope - the duality of humanity in some weird way.

It all adds up to the ball of fire, self-hate and fury that found him biting legs in press conferences and once you reach that rock-bottom, eventually you're gonna have to climb back up.

Fair play to his wife - Jake Paul aside, got a lot of time for this avatar of Tyson.

 

The qualification that both Frazier and Ali were “closest” to their primes in the FOTC sounds neat but doesn’t cut it.

Frazier was in his ABSOLUTE prime, Ali quite clearly was not, coupled with his obvious lack of match fitness/conditioning as at the time.

Even with ALL that, Ali ran Joe so very close.

I don’t know how many times it has to be repeated that George Chuvalo, after rematching Ali in ‘72, duly observed that Ali was that much removed from the guy he fought in the 60s.

Within the parameters of his second career, Ali hit the greatest sum of his parts from the Norton rematch through to The Rumble in the Jungle.

So, suggesting that FOTC Frazier beats any version of Ali is not based on sound rationale.

 

Exactly. Frazier was at his absolute PEAK, Ali sure wasn't. Ali's peak was immediately pre exile.